Carla Miller [00:00:00]:
Difficult relationships at work can be, well, difficult. They can eat away at our confidence. They can get in the way of our ability to do our jobs well, and they can turn a great job into something that we find stressful and overwhelming. So what can we do about that? Well, in today's episode, we're looking at how you can tackle some of those difficult relationships with my guest leadership coach, Jennifer McKenna. Now, Jen is a sought after leadership coach, and she helps clients overcome even the most horrible work challenges, helping them rebuild their confidence and self belief, and realize their ambition. She supports her clients to manage their energy and navigate their emotions, so that they can feel calm and resourceful at work. As well as being a highly experienced coach with the International Coaching Federation, Jen is an emotional freedom technique practitioner, leadership development expert, and also a valued member of the influence and impact faculty. So Jen has been one of my team for a long time.

Carla Miller [00:01:11]:
We co hosted Influence and Impact together for a couple of years, and she is also joining the faculty of women leading, which I'm very excited about. And for this episode, what we did is we asked Jen's audience about the challenges that they were having with work relationships, and then we have come up with some answers for their leadership questions. So we look at things like, how do you deal with someone giving very blunt feedback and that eating away at your confidence. We look at how do you deal with it as a manager when you're leading your team through a change process, and there's some interesting behaviors going on. We look at how do you talk to your manager when you're struggling with someone else in the workplace, and how do you deal with it when your manager isn't providing everything that you need? There's, also, a few other questions in there, which I think you're gonna find super helpful. So we problem solve your relationship well, your work relationship challenges together in this episode. I hope you find it super practical. I know you're gonna love Jen.

Carla Miller [00:02:19]:
She's fantastic. And at the end, you can also find out more about how you can work more with Jen and also about women leading, which is my new community for women leaders. It is now open. It is now up and running. It's brilliant to have some fantastic women in there, and I would love you to come and join us. So you can find out more about that later in the podcast, or head over to carlormillertraining.comforward/women leading. Great. Let's hear from Jen.

Carla Miller [00:02:55]:
Welcome to the show, Jen. Great to have you here.

Jennifer McCannna [00:02:58]:
Thanks, Carla. Thanks for having me. We finally made it happen.

Carla Miller [00:03:01]:
We did. It's great to have you actually on the podcast. We're always working together in various ways, but I've never actually had you on the podcast before. And difficult relationship situations is something you love to help people with, isn't it?

Jennifer McCannna [00:03:17]:
Yeah. I I did not set out to be a work relationship specialist in any way, but I just find that work relationships in all their in all their wonderfulness and their trickiness tend to, like, make appearances in coaching conversations all the time. So I found myself developing a few different strategies to help clients with them.

Carla Miller [00:03:39]:
Brilliant. Now Jen reached out to her audience and gathered some questions. So we have 7 questions we're gonna go through today, and Jen's gonna share her insight. If I've got anything to add, I will, but Jen is the star of this show. So our first question is, how do you deal with people who, when giving feedback, are very direct or very opinionated? And whilst they might not necessarily mean to be critical, it comes across as critical. So how do you handle that when it starts to eat at your confidence?

Jennifer McCannna [00:04:17]:
And I think to step back from that question for a minute, the world tends to fall into 2 camps. Those people who love being direct and will be direct, and their challenge is always to read their email in draft and add in a bit of how are you? How was your weekend? And then there's the other half of the population who we love to be asked how their weekend was. And when speaking to someone who is really direct, need to read the draft of their email and strip out the how is your holiday? Because we tend to, appreciate being communicated with in the way that we communicate naturally. So if you are somebody who really likes a bit of, the niceties, a bit of the small talk, when somebody communicates with you and gives you feedback that's really direct, it can feel like a bit of an emotional gut punch. I think there are lots of different ways to approach this. And in my work, I have realized that we need to engage with both the kind of practicalities, like the insight and strategy we need for this kind of situation, but also acknowledge our feelings in it. So we might start either with the thinking bit or the feeling bit. But for argument's sake, I've come up with a bit of a, what I call, the what next work relationships wheel.

Jennifer McCannna [00:05:38]:
Because we might decide to start in anywhere anywhere on the wheel that we want. But, essentially, the wheel is made up of 4 different strategies, I suppose. The first is insights. What do you know about this person and where they might be coming from? What's going on for them? What might what's their style? Is it a style thing? Are they very stressed? What is your insight on this person? Because that insight will help you with a strategy for how you communicate with them. The third thing so insight strategy. The third thing is around your own emotions and managing your own emotions. And quite a lot of the work that I do in coaching is actually helping clients navigate through their emotions. Like, we're allowed to have emotions.

Jennifer McCannna [00:06:25]:
You know, we're human beings. But acknowledging that this is difficult and maybe noticing where we're holding it. Like, I hold laser tension in my jaw. You might be holding it in your chest. And deciding which bits to let go of, I think, is really useful. And then the 4th bit, which I think is what this person may be getting at, is the sort of protection in the moment. So when this purse when I'm in a conversation with this person who might be giving me feedback, it might be quite direct, I might it might make me feel really uncomfortable. How will I protect myself? How will I, ensure that that doesn't really damage my confidence? So one of the things that I, often do with clients is ask them to come up with an imaginary outfit that they can wear, they can imagine putting on when they are with this person.

Jennifer McCannna [00:07:16]:
And I have had all sorts of different costumes and outfits that clients have described. So you might, describe a superhero outfit or it might be a kind of bubble. The it can have magical properties. So maybe it repels stuff. Maybe it's very, very clever and only lets the good stuff in, or maybe it lets the things in, but it has a kind of filter to take the emotion out. Maybe it makes you feel really powerful. Maybe it makes you feel really thoughtful or wise. It can do whatever you want.

Jennifer McCannna [00:07:51]:
So I would incur if this is you, if this is something you relate to, I would encourage you to get a piece of paper and just draw your outfit and then stick it above your desk and know that you can imagine putting it imagine putting it on whenever you need it.

Carla Miller [00:08:04]:
I love that idea. I've worked with the bubble idea, but I love you can get way more creative with an imaginary outfit. Okay. So the what next wheel, insight, what do you know about this person, strategy, how do you want to respond and handle the situation, managing your own emotions, and then that confidence and protection in the moment. Great framework. Thanks, Jen. I think there'll be lots of people writing that one down. Okay.

Carla Miller [00:08:30]:
Let's move on to the second question, which is about periods of change in the workplace. So we know a lot of workplaces going through restructures and redundancies at the moment. So there's a lot of this going on. And this person has said that they've noticed in their organization, during a period of change, people are starting to push to to battle for ground, for status. You know, they're fighting, aren't they, to to try and protect their roles. And as a manager in this situation, do you have any advice on how someone might be able to handle that?

Jennifer McCannna [00:09:11]:
What came up for me when I read this question, Carla, was, the word, like, responsibility. Because I'm noticing I'm wondering if there's a pull for this person to scoop up a bit more responsibility than perhaps they need to. So we know that change is really difficult. We know that, everybody potentially reacts and needs something different during change. I remember when I led a team through Restructure, one of the biggest learnings was understanding that some people wanted to talk about it all day, and some people didn't wanna talk about it at all. They just wanted to get on with their jobs. And they found each other really bewildering because they couldn't understand, you know, why do you wanna talk about it all the time? Why do you not wanna talk about it at all? So I think that there's an element here about what can you let go of. We need to remember that we've got some responsibilities as a leader during change to communicate really clearly, to communicate, very as as transparently as we can and as frequently as we can.

Jennifer McCannna [00:10:15]:
So the brain doesn't do gaps. But if there's some unknown information, what it will do is it will fill that gap with what it thinks is the most likely scenario or in this situation, probably what the worst case scenario is because the brain is also scanning for threat all the time, isn't it? And that's how when we go through change, rumors start because we haven't we haven't, communicated. Even if it's to communicate to say there isn't we don't know what this look looks like yet. We will let you know as soon as we do. Because otherwise, you'll get people going, well, I bet they do know really. It's just that they're, you know, they're not telling us, and I bet it's this terrible disaster over here. So we do have some responsibilities, but we're also in adult to adult relationships at work, aren't we? So presumably, the other pe people that we're working with are also grown ups. And so it's their responsibility whether they want to to, like, engage in a in competition with each other.

Jennifer McCannna [00:11:10]:
I'm not sure that as the leader, that's our stuff to sort out, if you see what I mean. I think there's something about taking responsibility for the bits that we can, but not trying to fix the stuff that actually isn't ours to fix. Unless, of course, it's impacting on the work getting done, in which case, you can have a clear communication about what's acceptable and what isn't. What would you add?

Carla Miller [00:11:40]:
Well, I was gonna say that makes sense, and I think it's really interesting about the brain not being able to cope with gaps and filling in the information. So it explains why people suddenly get very paranoid in those situations and and jump to that worst case scenario. I think as a manager, recognizing that going through a change process and expecting everyone to be on their best behavior and their best performance at the same time is is probably not a realistic expectation. So you you want to be cutting people some slack. I would try and make sure that you are bringing a calming and reassuring energy to the team and make sure that you are being completely fair. Regardless of people's behavior, what others don't want to see is someone's making that extra effort and really pushing themselves forward, and they're being rewarded for that. So you I think fairness is so important during that situation. And then I think as an individual, just recognizing that everybody has those different coping strategies when they sense danger, and their nervous systems are absolutely sensing sensing danger at that point.

Carla Miller [00:12:48]:
And that's where that, like, flight, fight, freeze, fawn comes from. So when you're being triggered by someone else's behavior, just recognizing, oh, well, how might I feel in that situation? Like, putting yourself in other people's shoes, humanizing them, and realizing, oh, yeah. We're all just coping with something really difficult in our own way. So that that's what I would suggest.

Jennifer McCannna [00:13:14]:
Yeah. That goes back to the insights bit on the what next wheel. Like, the what's going on for them? What do I understand about them? How must this be feeling for them? Like, what's on their plate? What are they waking up at 2 in the morning and worrying about? It can give us really new insight into understanding what someone might need, which leads us on to be able to think of the strategy.

Carla Miller [00:13:37]:
Definitely. Okay. So question 3. If you're a leader and you are facing relationship difficulties with a colleague, what's the best way to raise this in a constructive

Jennifer McCannna [00:13:58]:
I I think that something really simple, like asking your boss for some insight into how you might approach that relationship. I think you can do that in a way that actually helps you come across, like, you're taking ownership, like, you're being proactive. So you might say something like, you know, I'm having a bit of, some challenges at the moment communicating with Derek, for example. And I was really wondering if you had any insight into what's going on in his area of the business right now. Like, what challenges are they facing? Are there some other things going on that maybe I don't have sight of? Because this would really help me support him and build a relationship with him. Because at the moment, I'm finding it tricky, or I I'm finding he's not responding to my emails, or and I just wondered what else was going on. Then in that way, we're we are showing that actually we're being quite strategic. We're showing that we understand that there's probably some other stuff at play that we can't see.

Jennifer McCannna [00:15:02]:
We're being really adult to adult about it. We're focusing on finding a solution. I mean, if someone said that to to you, would you think, oh, they don't know what they're doing, or would you think actually they're taking some ownership?

Carla Miller [00:15:15]:
Yeah. I think it's a really problem solving approach. Like, let's let's solve this problem together kind of consulting. So I think that's a fantastic approach to take. And for me, the other thing I would think about is, are you taking full responsibility for your part in that challenging relationship? Because sometimes someone is just super challenging, and sometimes the dynamic between 2 people can be a bit challenging. So if you're a leader having issues with your peers, then part of your role is to navigate internally and to proactively build those relationships. So I would want to start by telling my line manager what I tried so far and talk about how you can improve the relationship rather than complain about how hard work the other person is. Because that's what we often want to do with our line manager, isn't it? Is we we kind of want to vent and say, look.

Carla Miller [00:16:08]:
This bit of my job is really hard right now. But that's why influencing is such an important skill for managers and leaders to develop, and it's a core part, obviously, of the influence and impact program that you were part of for a long time. And I I think I would try and work it out myself, and then I'd escalate to my line manager if I felt that the situation needed their authority to resolve or it needed some clarity from them to resolve. So I think when we're junior, we go to our line manager straightaway with these issues. But the more senior you become, the more it is part of your role to do that internal navigation, isn't it?

Jennifer McCannna [00:16:44]:
Absolutely. And I think that there's a real tendency sometimes for us to go into work relationships with our own bosses in a little bit viewing them as a bit of a parental figure. And I think that that can if you go to your boss and have a have a bit of events, what your boss is gonna be hearing is, oh, no. I've got to sort this out for this person. That's another thing for me to do. Whereas if you go in with a kind of, look, I've tried this. What what other insight do you have? You're you're showing that you are taking responsibility for it. And, already, you're in a more of an adult adult relationship there, which is what we're aiming for.

Jennifer McCannna [00:17:19]:
Right?

Carla Miller [00:17:20]:
Absolutely. And that works for everyone. No one wants to be a parent to all the people in their all their direct reports, and we don't actually want our bosses to be our parents. Okay. So let's move on to the 4th question, which again is about your line manager. And and I think this is a question that it comes up quite a lot, actually, in terms of my coaching clients. I imagine you see it quite a bit as well. But how do you handle it when your line manager isn't doing all the things that you need? For example, sharing details from above or giving you the positive feedback that you need to stay motivated.

Jennifer McCannna [00:18:00]:
I think everything we've mentioned so far is probably relevant here, isn't it, Carla? So that's how am I entering into this relationship? Am I doing it in a kind of taking taking ownership for what I need, being adult to adult, not expecting my boss to be perfect and all things to all people. And then thinking back to that what next wheel, again, the insight, what is going on for my boss? It just might give us a bit of perspective and insight into what makes them tick, which then might give us a strategy into how to ask for the thing that we need. So what I would say is and I'm I'm sure no one is intending to do this. But, you know, just for absolute clarity, don't go in with a big list of all the stuff that they're not doing that you need. Because to an already overwhelmed boss, that's gonna be, like, a bit demoralizing, and they'll probably just sort of blank it out their mind. But think about what's the one thing what's the most important thing that your boss could do that would have the most impact to your, effectiveness, well-being, whatever it is at work, and focus on asking them for that one thing. And then if you've thought about what's going on for them and maybe what their targets are or what they're being judged on, You know? What what is it that they are aiming to achieve? How might you support them to do that? How do you therefore need them to be in order that you can support them with that? So it might be that they are not giving you the details that you would like from above to help you get the big picture so that you can support them on a particular project. So you might say, what else is going? I'll be really it'd be really great.

Jennifer McCannna [00:19:49]:
I appreciate that you can't tell me everything that goes on at leadership level or whatever it is. Be really great to hear a few more details about x, y, and zed so that when I'm pulling this presentation together, I know what to focus on. You know? So you're linking I'm try when I'm feeding you this slide deck that you're gonna take to wherever you're taking it, I've got the information I need to support you in the best way, and that's a real kind of example of partnering, I think. And, again, that insight into, so what's life like for them right now will give you that positioning of the ask of what you need.

Carla Miller [00:20:30]:
Brilliant. Thanks, Jen. Now question number 5. How do I handle it when there's a real difference in communication style between me and someone else? And this person's giving an example. My manager really rambles on, and I'd love them to get to the point.

Jennifer McCannna [00:20:49]:
Oh, I think it goes back to that first point, doesn't it? We all communicate in a different way. When time is tight, sometimes we just love it if everybody's communicated like us. But, you know, we, in the same way that I might find some somebody who rambles on quite, frustrating, so I just wanna get to the point, They might find my kind of directness and brevity quite, unnerving. They might, maybe they might take that as that direct feedback that someone out that, you know, that someone else was saying earlier was actually really tricky. So, you know, we're all somebody else's tricky person. Right? And in some ways, that in lots of ways, that diversity of approach really helps us make great decisions. It really, you know, brings lots of different thinking into the problem solving at work. So I think there's some acceptance needed that we go to work.

Jennifer McCannna [00:21:41]:
Everybody works in slightly different way. We've kinda got to accept that that we will come across that difference. Taking time to really build trust with those import with the people whose relationships it's a key relationship, which might look like, you know, making sure there's time for the non work chat, learning a little bit about that person outside of work, learning what's going on for them. All of those things, I think, help us build our understanding and tolerance for each other. In terms of this particular one, tactically, if I was thinking about maybe the insight, I've got some insight into this person, and now I just need a strategy. If they ramble on, I'd be signposting to being brief. I'd be I might, in meetings, be saying, oh, time is tight. So what are the key points? Or, like, we've only got 15 minutes for this because then we need to move on to that.

Jennifer McCannna [00:22:43]:
What is it I need to take away and do? So kind of cutting through in a in a way that sort of, I love the way, Carla, when you were talking about bringing a calm and re ensuring energy earlier in change. We can also bring a kind of organized and let's get on with it energy to a meeting, can't we? Even as I say that, I find I'm leaning in. I might be picking up a pen. Right. So we've got 10 minutes. What are the key points that we need? Yeah. That would be my tactic, I guess.

Carla Miller [00:23:15]:
Yeah. And I I think that's much easier to do than to address it directly sometimes. I think it's much easier to kind of go, right, how do I kind of chivvy this meeting along and seem very can do and positive and get them to stay focused without making it look like you are taking control and kind of messing with that power dynamic. So yeah. And it's all about tone and energy, like you say. I think so much of when you're delivering difficult stuff is about tone, isn't it? You can be really clear and calm and direct. If you do it with a warmth to your voice, it will land a lot better than if you do it with quite a different energy.

Jennifer McCannna [00:23:58]:
Something we've not mentioned yet is your allies. Like, how are your colleagues experiencing this person? Are they do they also find that this person rumbles on? Therefore, might you all attempt this strategy? And what might that do in terms of managing upwards, you know, in team meetings, for example? So I think that enlisting the enlisting your the support of your colleagues can be helpful if there's a particular behaviour that a lot of you are noticing.

Carla Miller [00:24:26]:
And, Yeah. It's just reassuring to know that you're not the only person noticing it, isn't it? But when I'm coaching someone on this, one of the first things I try and establish is, have you noticed anyone else having issues like this with this person? Because then that helps you work out. Okay. So this is this a dynamic between the 2 of them, or is this a pattern of behavior that you need to that's consistent that you need to work out how to work with? So, yeah, it's always a a great bit of insight, isn't it, to know if you're the only one. But I what you said earlier about we're all someone's tricky person, like, part of me was like, no. Not me. And then I was like, oh, yeah. No.

Jennifer McCannna [00:25:00]:
It's Definitely not you, Carla. I I can, I think that this is this stuff is all much harder when we are working remote and hybrid because we don't have the op one of the reasons is we don't have the opportunity to sense check if someone else is finding this difficult as well? So I've got a friend who has got a difficult boss, and she gets some quite stress emails that she perceives to be quite stressful landing. And she finds them really stressful. She doesn't know what to do with them. And then she went into the office and received one of these emails while sitting next to a colleague, also in the same level as her. And she kind of did a kind of, oh god, kind of, you know, noise when she received this email. And this colleague went, oh, it's an an email from so and so. Oh, I get those and feel exactly the same way.

Jennifer McCannna [00:25:44]:
So when she was telling me this, I was saying how is work, and she said, well, it's the same, but I feel so much better because I know it's not just me. Like, everybody's experiencing it in this way, and therefore, she feels like she's not alone. They can her and her colleague can, like, bounce ideas off each other. They can be allies. They can go for coffee and have a bit of events. And if she'd been at home receiving that email, I wonder if she'd have felt she was able to Teams message that colleague. It's because she was in the shared space that the colleague could pick up on that body language that she had and check-in on her. So I think this this stuff is possible online.

Jennifer McCannna [00:26:24]:
Absolutely. But I just think that, sometimes we don't feel we have permission to reach in and ask for help in the way that we might do if someone was just sitting next to us and hearing us go, and, you know, throwing our arms up in the air and going, again. So there's something about when we're working in teams about how do we check-in with each other on that kind of thing, how we're dealing with things, and how do we support each other so that we're not all kind of dealing with the difficult emails in a vacuum.

Carla Miller [00:26:53]:
Yeah. And what you were just saying about feeling less alone, sharing experiences is one of the reasons I think both of us run group programs because when you bring people together I mean, even just listening to this podcast, there'll be people listening going, oh, I thought it was just me, or, oh, this must be actually quite a common issue if it's actually showing up on a podcast. But the same in the in the group sessions. I think when you, when you air something that's going on for you and you recognize, oh, those are the people who look like they've got everything completely sorted are actually also dealing with all of this stuff, and we can share experiences. I think that's really powerful. You and I used to run Influence and Impact together when it was a 12 month program, and we hosted those sessions. And it was brilliant to see the women connecting and supporting each other. Wasn't it?

Jennifer McCannna [00:27:40]:
Absolutely. And when you get people come back from a breakout room and they've all got beaming smiles on their faces, you know they've just had a real a a conversation that's really felt really nurturing and really supportive because they've, yeah, they've shared experiences, and they feel less alone. And they're like, okay. And I know Carla, you would say this as well, but you and I haven't got a hundred everything 100% sorted, have we? Like, actually being able to share our own stories and our own experiences, I think, really normalises these challenges.

Carla Miller [00:28:12]:
Definitely. I think it's definitely safe to say that neither of us have our I was gonna swear then, but I won't. Our staff are a 100% sorted. But to at the end of this, podcast, Jen will tell you a little bit more about her program. I'll also tell you a bit about women leading because these are both fantastic, very different, but fantastic ways to connect with other leaders and get that support and encouragement. Okay. So on to question number 6, Jen. How do I manage my feelings about not getting my needs met at work? Big one.

Jennifer McCannna [00:28:49]:
Okay. I'm gonna have really struggle not to give my TED talk here, Carla, because I could talk about this all day. So, I will talk a little bit about how I might approach this, in one to one coaching, but then maybe give some tips about how you might do this if you're listening or in the moment. So alongside my one to one sort of pure coaching, so I've been coaching since, you know, 2011, I now also do emotional freedom technique, which is one way of helping clients process and navigate through tricky emotions, and also really help them sort of live into and step into the positive stuff, the stuff they want more of, the confidence, the creativity. Emotional freedom technique is a sort of neuroscience tool where, basically, what we're doing is we're tapping on various acupressure points whilst we are doing what we might normally do in coaching, which is talking through the the issue and the challenge. And the important thing about it is that it really, normalises and it's about us accepting our emotions. We have to, It's not about bottling them up or getting rid of them. It's about going, oh, you know what? I'm feeling really frustrated about that, and that's okay because I'm a human being, and I'm allowed to have emotions, and I'm allowed to have this this frustration.

Jennifer McCannna [00:30:07]:
Where am I holding this frustration? What do I wanna do with it? Do I wanna hold on to it, or do I wanna let some of it go essentially? So in a one to one session, I do quite a lot a lot of first coaching sessions these days involve quite a lot of clearing the decks of all the kind of, went through that horrible restructuring. It was awful. Or I had this boss 3 years ago, and they left me with my confidence feeling really dented, just sort of of clearing the decks of the impact that that's had on our confidence and our emotional well-being. I think in the moment, if you're listening to this, there's something about acknowledging your feelings and accepting that that's part of our human existence is to have emotions. And then to think about what can I influence and what can I let go of? So Stephen Covey's circles of influence is an absolutely wonderful tool. If we are in a work situation where we're feeling quite emotional, we're feeling like things are being done to us a little bit. This comes up in change all the time. And change, of course, is we're all in change all the time now, aren't we? Change is not a one time thing.

Jennifer McCannna [00:31:18]:
So Stephen Covey talks about this in his book, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. And, essentially, the habit he's talking about is proactivity. And he talks about these 3 concentric circles with the things that we can control. So how I show up, the things I talk about, where I focus my energy, the stuff we can influence. So that might be the relationships I have around me, how I influence those, and then the stuff which is in our circle of concern which we cannot control or we cannot influence. And so arguably, letting go of it will will enable us to focus on the bits we can influence. And what he says is when we focus on the stuff we influence, our influence grows, which is, you know, what we would like at work, isn't it? We want to be influential. We want to have a voice.

Jennifer McCannna [00:32:05]:
So there's something they're they're here about thinking, okay. I've got these emotions. Which of them am I ready to let go of? And and what can I refocus on in terms of what I can do and who I can influence? Because it just feels better when we do that.

Carla Miller [00:32:24]:
EFT sounds like a very powerful tool for getting rid of I don't know if that's quite the right phrase. Processing those strong emotions that have lingered with us.

Jennifer McCannna [00:32:35]:
It's so powerful. I mean, I've personally been using it for, about 25 years. I was quite ill in my early twenties, and so that's when I started on a bit of a journey into natural health, and I had a practitioner who sort of peppered in a little bit of emotional freedom technique. And I always used to think, I wonder why I feel so much better after I've seen Alison. And then I realized that it was because she always did a bit of emotional freedom technique with me. And it was actually in the pandemic that I thought, you know what? I'm so I I do so much signposting of clients to, for example, EFT videos on the YouTube. I just thought, you know what, Jennifer? You need to train so that you can incorporate this into your coaching because so many people were coming, understandably, with quite a lot of emotional stuff to process. And what I find is if we can clear the decks of that stuff that I feel really angry about or I feel really sad about or I feel like there's part of me that knows I can be this really confident leader, but I'm just holding on to these little voices of that boss back in 2010 who said this thing to me this time.

Jennifer McCannna [00:33:45]:
I just like, it's there. If I can actually just let go of that message and that voice, I can step into the person I kinda know I can be, but there's quite a lot of deconditioning, isn't isn't there around the messages we've received? So it's absolutely amazing for that. Absolutely amazing. It's transformed my coaching practice, I think, which was, you know, already already I was already quite an experienced coach with lots of tools and strategies, but it definitely has enabled me to work with people who need a bit of emotional first aid maybe first before they're like, right. Okay. So the difference I see between clients and how they're feeling in session 1 and how they show up then in session 2 is often quite stark, which is a wonderful wonderful privilege to watch.

Carla Miller [00:34:39]:
Amazing. And I'm excited because we're lining you up to do some EFT within women leading, aren't we, so that we can help people deal with stress and overwhelm. So that's gonna be great. I think the only thing I would add to that in terms of Stephen Covey's circles is when something is is out of your area of control or influence. For me, I have found it quite helpful to take what I guess is quite a Buddhist approach of not wasting my energy fighting reality. I remember years ago someone saying, it is what it is. And it was quite annoying when they said it to me at the time. But actually, I have found that a very calming phrase because it stops me from wasting huge amounts of my mental energy thinking about how something is not fair or not right or should be different when I have no ability to change that.

Carla Miller [00:35:36]:
So the way I tend to do it is to is to think back to myself, to recognize I can't change someone else. But what I can do is I can validate myself so that I'm not seeking external validation quite so much. I can know my own worth. I can ask for what I need rather than just assuming someone's not gonna give it to me. And then I can make that decision. Do I choose to stay in this imperfect environment because, overall, the good outweighs the bad? Or do I need to find somewhere where I'm gonna be happier? So that gives me a sense of control because then I'm going, well, actually, I've weighed it up and I choose to stay. I'm not stuck with this. It's not perfect, but actually, I am choosing to be in this situation.

Carla Miller [00:36:19]:
So that's I like to feel a little bit in control so that that way of thinking helps me.

Jennifer McCannna [00:36:25]:
Yeah. There's always choice. Even when it doesn't when it doesn't feel like there's choice, there is always some choice, isn't there?

Carla Miller [00:36:32]:
Yeah. And I think it's empowering to realize that definitely. I can find myself stuck and feeling sorry for myself quite often. And when I do, I'm like, oh, hang on. I'm here as a result of the choices I've made. That's really helpful for me to recognize, and I can choose what I want to do next. Okay. So I think we are on to yep.

Carla Miller [00:36:52]:
We're on to our final question, which is a longer one. Someone has been through a restructure, made redundancies their company has made redundancies, and their job is safe, but the pressure is now on for them to step up and have more of a profile within the business. And she says, my new man my new line manager is an older man without children, and is just not hearing me when I say I'm not able to travel right now. I've got primary school age children, a husband who's a teacher, so he's not available during the week, and no one who can do school runs for me when I'm away. Are there any suggestions on, a, how to have a conversation with them around that, but also how can I be a female leader that isn't in the direct mold of male counterparts? So it's quite a lot to that question, but I think there's 2 parts. 1 is how do you handle that sort of negotiation, and then secondly, any thoughts on generally, what if you're looking at a leader and thinking, well, I don't want to lead that way?

Jennifer McCannna [00:37:59]:
I'm going to pass over to you in a minute, Carla, because I know that you do so many amazing talk talks on allyship that you've got lots of thoughts on this. But I'm thinking back to the what next wheel here, and I'm thinking about insight into this, male leader. And there was a couple of keywords there, weren't there, like profile. And I'm thinking, okay. So how else can we build our profile? Because the world isn't just it face to face anymore, is is it? Some of the work that I do with clients when they want to be more influential internally in a remote setting, and they are thinking, I don't know, you know, I I can't I can never see this boss. I can never see these people, but can you see them online? So we sometimes assume that we've only got the internal online world, but, you know, we have the Internet. So, you know, LinkedIn is our friend. You know, for example, I don't know what this, person's job is and what profile means to them in this in this job.

Jennifer McCannna [00:39:06]:
But, you know, posting on LinkedIn as an expert voice, You don't need to you don't need to be on it every day. Carla and I might be on it more frequently. But if you're internal, you don't need to put loads and loads of effort, I think, into a presence online. You can actually create a profile and comment thoughtfully and as an expert in a way that really raises your profile. And the people that are watching that will be all over the world. There's, somebody that I follow is in New Zealand, and I think she's absolutely brilliant. We're very unlikely to ever meet, but my goodness me, she has a really, really credible online persona. So I would think about profile and what it means and how you might be able to illustrate that that doesn't always need to involve face to face.

Jennifer McCannna [00:39:56]:
I'm gonna hand over to you, Carla. I've got some thoughts about female leadership. I know you will have too.

Carla Miller [00:40:03]:
I think on that first question, I would work with him to understand what he thinks will be achieved by international travel and then show alternative ways to achieve those same goals, alternative ways to build profile, helping him to see that profile can look like lots of different things. Because let's assume the best of someone here. He's probably trying to be helpful by sharing what works for him. He's trying to give advice to help you thrive in this new world within your organization. But if it's really not going to work for you, and it sounds like it's not, I think that you can make travel a nonnegotiable, and I think you can talk to HR if you need to to get that agreed because it's a lot of hours outside of core working hours. So it's a big ask to make. But I would start by really trying to kind of problem solve with him. Okay.

Carla Miller [00:40:59]:
So you want me to build profile. Why? What will that give me? What are we trying to achieve here? And how else could profile look other than being in a room with someone? And Jen's just given a fantastic example there of using LinkedIn. But best of luck, doesn't sound like a very easy situation to be in at all. And then I think onto the second point, I mean, I run whole courses on on this because I feel very strongly that there is no one right way to manage or to lead. And I think when you work in a very male dominated sector, it's quite easy to look and go, well, that's what leadership looks like. And I don't feel comfortable with that. That's not for me. I'd feel like I'm faking it, when actually all companies benefit from having a real diversity in terms of leadership.

Carla Miller [00:41:52]:
You know? Introverts, extroverts, detail people, big picture people. What softer? I mean, I'm not sure. I I don't love the phrase softer skills, but softer skills are becoming more and more valued now. I think since, the various lockdowns, even the big companies like Deloitte are saying we need to have a lot more empathy. We need to have a lot more flexibility, a lot more compassion. So what I like to do is to work with leaders whether 1 to 1 or within our groups to develop what I call their personal leadership brand, which is about what does you at your best look like? Let's stop being a crappy version of someone else and be the best version we can of ourselves, that enables us to feel confident because then we're not faking or pretending. We're not gonna feel like an imposter. We're being authentic to who we are, and then we're giving implicit permission to the other women around us to show up as they are as well.

Carla Miller [00:42:53]:
So I think when you do that, then you can demonstrate a different approach to leadership that can also be effective. But I also think being a successful female leader is not an easy thing to do. We do have a double bind. So even if we did act like the men around us, we'd still be judged negatively for that because they'd be sitting there going, well, that's not how women are meant to act. So it is such a tight rope to walk, really, to successfully navigate organizations, to be confident but not be seen as arrogant, to be clear and a fantastic communicator but make sure you're likable. There's so much of that going on, and, really, that's what my book, my programs are all about, are how do you regain your confidence when it's been knocked down by gender bias, and how do you find your own way of leading and navigating in what is not an easy situation to be in?

Jennifer McCannna [00:43:51]:
One, way that I like to think about this is thinking about leadership style as being entirely contextual. So there's an outdated, isn't there, kind of model of leadership where we lead from the front, and we're very directive, and we're full of energy, and we do laser talking. And you know what? If the building is on fire and we need to get everyone out, then great. We we're shouting everyone out. We're not stopping to ask people how they feel about the fire. We're we're out the building. Right? And then there's another. But then, you know, faced with someone in your team who's maybe going through something difficult, We wanna dial up the curiosity and the empathy and hold some space for them to kind of share.

Jennifer McCannna [00:44:32]:
And, actually, what we're aiming for as leaders, I believe, is to be able to have a bit of a range so that, actually, we've got these different modes that we can bring depending on what the person in front of us needs and what the situation demands. So it's not like this way of leading is the best way. It's about what is the situation, and what's my versatility as a leader so that I can rise to this challenge and I can greet this person in the in with what they need or what the situation needs.

Carla Miller [00:45:01]:
Exactly.

Jennifer McCannna [00:45:02]:
Which is, I think, one way of getting out of, do I lead in this way or do I lead in that way? But actually think about what does the situation need, and this is how I will okay. What have I got in my toolkit that will help me in this conversation?

Carla Miller [00:45:16]:
Definitely. Now, Jen, I know that you had an exercise that you wanted to share with my listeners. Do you want to talk us through that?

Jennifer McCannna [00:45:26]:
So this is basically to help you get into the insights bit of the, what next, work relationships wheel. So the the four elements it's a wheel because you might choose to start in a different place depending on where you're at. So you might choose to start with managing your emotions because you might not be ready to go into insights because you're so flipping angry. So you need to kind of focus on what you wanna do with that before you get into the sort of thinking part of insights and strategy. But this exercise is just to help you get into that insight. So you'll need a paper some paper and a pen or a pencil or indeed your children's, like, coloring tools if you have some to hand. I want you to draw a a bag on on a piece of paper and make it take up as much of the paper as you can. You can draw any kind of bag.

Jennifer McCannna [00:46:19]:
You can draw a a mulberry bag, a rucksack, a shopping bag, whatever you want. And inside this bag, I just want you to write down everything that you know that's going on about this person that you are struggling with. So what are they lying in bed worrying about? What are their KPIs? What is their leadership style like normally? What are the things that they struggle with? Who are their allies? I want you to just write all of that into your bag. And that is all their stuff. Right? It's their stuff. It's in their bag. But then there'll be some things that you don't know, and that's entirely appropriate. Like, the world doesn't know everything about me.

Jennifer McCannna [00:47:01]:
The world doesn't know everything about Carla, and arguably nor should it. But there will be some things that will be interesting and useful for you to perhaps understand like what's life like in their part of the organization. So the next bit is to get curious about what you don't know and you and write those in your bag as well. And you could phrase those in a way that's like, I wonder I wonder what's going on at leadership level right now. I wonder what this person is most concerned about. I wonder how supported they feel in their role, the things that you're not sure about. And then you can look at this and think, okay. This is the stuff I know about them.

Jennifer McCannna [00:47:45]:
This is the stuff I don't know about them. Looking at all of that, what does this person need from me? And when there's gaps and it feels like it would be appropriate you to for you to fill that gap, Like, who might have that information? So who does know this person well? Who might help me understand this more? And then just notice how you feel when you look at this this bag of all this stuff that this person has. How do you feel and what new insight do you have in terms of how you might approach a relationship with them? And that is it. Simple and easy. And not not easy. Nothing's easy. But you know what I mean. Simple.

Carla Miller [00:48:32]:
It is simple, and it sounds really powerful. So if there's someone at work that you are struggling to influence, book some time in your diary this week, grab a cup of coffee or a nice cup of tea, and just invest, like, a half hour, 20 minutes on doing that exercise. And I guarantee that that will shift the energy that you bring, as well as giving you those insights that you need and helping you therefore work on your strategies. It will shift the energy that you bring to that relationship as well because you will suddenly be seeing them as a little bit more like you and a little bit more human instead of focusing on the ways in which they're really quite obstructive at the moment. So thanks, Jen. I love that episode, that that exercise. I might steal it and give you credit for that when I, run some of my workshops, actually, because that sounds brilliant. Feel free.

Carla Miller [00:49:28]:
Okay. Now, Jen, tell us, tell us about how people can work with you, how you approach

Jennifer McCannna [00:49:35]:
things. Okay. So, I guess my when I look at my work diary, it sort of falls into 3 different types of things that I do. I do lots of one to one coaching, and I think I've talked a little bit in this podcast episode about the the work the sort of things that come up in my coaching. So a lot of my one to one coaching is, sort of these days starts with, someone who kind of has that understanding that that they that they want to they want to maybe make the next move, or they know that they can be absolutely amazing, but they're just holding this the the the effects of, like, quite an emotional time at work. And they need help a little bit with processing those emotions as well as the strategy and the building resources. So I do the one to one coaching. I do, my own program, which is called from frazzled boss to inspiring leader, which is at the moment, it's I am actually taking a term off to review the flow, of the workshops and to ensure that all the online modules are as accessible as they can be.

Jennifer McCannna [00:50:43]:
That is a sort of short workshops, and online modules, a little bit and a little bit of time with me. And then the 3rd, area that I do work in is I go into organizations and run leadership development programs. So I'm doing some work at the moment with Sheffield City Council and also with Oxfam. So that takes up quite a lot of time. So big group groups of cohorts of of leaders inside organizations. I think that my work sort of falls into 4 main areas, helping people manage their energy. So I'm the the latest bit of you know, us coaches are always learning, aren't we? That my latest bit of learning is I'm, training to be a resilient dynamic practitioner. And I won't tell you all about that right now because I haven't got all the time in the world, but, essentially, that's giving me even more tools to really support clients feel resourceful and manage their energy.

Jennifer McCannna [00:51:36]:
So managing that managing energy is so important, isn't it? None of us have finite energy. We're both working parents. We get it. We spend a lot of time managing our own energy, intentionally. So managing energy, navigating our emotions. So that doesn't mean bottling them up and never looking at them. It doesn't mean pretending they're not there. It doesn't mean, like, leaping into the office and, like, telling everyone everything because that might not be feel right for us.

Jennifer McCannna [00:52:03]:
I'm not saying that's the wrong thing to do. I'm just saying it might not feel good to us. It's about raising our awareness of how we're feeling, giving ourselves permission to feel those feelings, and then finding a way to move through them. Then there's a big part of my work, which is about helping people build their resources. So that might be insight inner resources, so our confidence, my creativity, but also the, like, building blocks of good leadership. So, you know, the skills like coaching skills, like delegation skills, some really practical stuff. And then finally, I hope that all of my work helps people stay curious because I think as leaders, if we can stay curious, that helps us be nonjudgmental. That keeps us open minded to possibility.

Jennifer McCannna [00:52:45]:
And you know what? The world of work is so busy these days that we're from 1 minute, one meeting to the next. Actually, we don't often get the space to sit back and think, oh, I wonder what that's about. I wonder what's really going on there. I wonder how I could have the biggest impact here. And, actually, just, you know, taking time out whether it's in one of our programs or one to one coaching or, you know, going to the leadership development that your own organization has set up for you, those are really great ways of taking some space back for thinking, which I think we all could do more of right now. Fantastic. So I've gone around the houses, haven't I? I haven't really My program from Frasalbust to Inspire Leader will, kick off again in September, and I'll make sure there's a link to it in the show notes if that's how that works, Carla.

Carla Miller [00:53:35]:
It is. Yes. So lots of different ways that you can work with Jen there, and I'm sure that will be resonating with lots of you. Another way you can work with Jen is that she is joining the faculty for women leading. So women leading is now live, and includes workshops every month. Jen's gonna be running one for us on the resilience side. So managing your team's energy and your own energy, which is such an important thing to be able to do. Also gonna have some EFT from Jen in there as well to help us deal with stress and overwhelm.

Carla Miller [00:54:09]:
Alongside that, there are peer support calls. There are monthly q and a's with me, and there are regular menopause events as well to support you if you're going through perimenopause or menopause. I'm really looking forward to doing that. Having Jen again to work alongside will be fantastic, but we we hosted a community of women for a couple of years together, and it was a really special experience. And I know that experience has really stayed with a lot of the members as well, so I'm excited to be hosting that again and to be bringing fab guest experts like Jen on board as well. You'll be able to find out more about Jen in the show notes, but thank you so much for sharing your insights and ideas. Some really fantastic tools that I know people will be able to apply. So thanks very much, Jen.

Jennifer McCannna [00:54:56]:
Thank you, Carla. It's been lovely to chat.

Carla Miller [00:55:02]:
Thanks so much for listening to today's podcast. I hope you found it super valuable. If you would like more, if you'd like to keep working with me, there are a few ways you can do that. Very briefly, you can work with me 1 to 1 as a coach. You can join women leading my community for women leaders where you get loads of support from other women. You get, support from me, and monthly workshops helping you to develop your leadership skills, and help you lead without overwhelm. We also have regular menopause gatherings for those of you going through perimenopause within women leading. The third way you can work with me is with influence and impact by program I've been running since 2019 to help you to confidently step into your power as a leader and tackle self doubt as well, influence upwards.

Carla Miller [00:55:55]:
And then, finally, you can work with me in house. So I run be bolder training. I run women's workshops. I give keynotes for women's networks. We do gender neutral versions of everything as well. So there's lots of different ways to work with me. Best thing to do, either head over to my website, carlamiller. Co.uk, and drop me a message, or head over to LinkedIn, and let's have a chat about how I can best help you.