Carla Miller [00:00:00]:
Is your workplace toxic? In this episode, I'm talking to happiness at work expert, Aoife O'Brien, about the red flags in toxic workplaces that you need to be aware of. We look at how you can identify a toxic work environment, and how to establish if it's generally toxic for everyone, or just toxic for you because it isn't the right fit. We're also going to cover what to do if you feel stuck in that environment, how it can impact your confidence, and really importantly, how to make sure that the next workplace you move to is much healthier. My guest, Aoife O'Brien, founded Happier at Work to solve the problem that 85% of employees are disengaged at work. Using her research based Happier at Work framework, she partners with leaders to focus on workplace culture, cultivating balance, and empowering leaders. As a podcast listener, you will be happy to know that she also has her own podcast. It's award winning. It's called happier at work.

Carla Miller [00:01:03]:
I've been a guest on it, and it's all about the research and the knowledge that exists out there around being happier at work and creating happier work places. Now this is the Influence and Impact podcast for women leaders, helping you confidently navigate the ups and downs of leadership and feel less alone on your journey as a leader. My name is Carla Miller. I've been coaching leaders for the past 15 years, and I am your leadership coach. I'm here to remind you of the value that you bring to your organization, to help you believe in yourself, and to share practical tools and insights from myself and my brilliant guests that will help you to succeed in your career. This is now a top 2% global podcast, which blows my mind, so thank you. Thanks for being part of that, and do keep on spreading the word by sharing a favorite episode with someone today. Now, something very exciting is also happening this week outside of the podcast.

Carla Miller [00:02:08]:
I am launching women leading, which is all about helping you to lead without overwhelm. Now this is for you if you experience any of the following. So if you want somewhere that you can talk through the leadership challenges that you're facing, if you want to be the best manager and leader you can be, and keep developing your leadership skills, If you've got too much work to do, but you struggle to say no, or to set the boundaries that you need to, to protect your time and energy. If leading feels overwhelming sometimes, and you just don't wanna feel like that anymore, if you want to feel less alone, more supported, and have somewhere to talk through the ups and downs of leading. We're also integrating well-being and dealing with overwhelm into the whole community. So it's also relevant for you if your own well-being never makes it to the top of your priority list, so you're often exhausted and stressed. If you struggle with worry and overthinking, and it's keeping you up at night or holding you back at work, We know that quite a few women listening to the podcast are also experiencing perimenopause. So if you're going through that, and would like a safe place to talk about that with other women, we're also going to have regular menopause gatherings, and it's also a good opportunity for you to work more closely with me, and be connected to some brilliant and inspiring women, and normalize some of what you're experiencing.

Carla Miller [00:03:43]:
So I listened to my 1 to 1 coaching clients. I listened to all the experiences and questions and challenges that the hundreds of women that have gone through my open courses and in house workshops over the past few months have raised. And I looked at the episodes of the podcast that were being downloaded the most, and some of them have been downloaded thousands of times, and I saw the themes, and those are the themes that I've just talked you through. So if you're experiencing any of those issues that I just talked about, you're not alone, and you don't need to feel alone either. That's why I've created the women leading community to offer you the support, and the strategies, and the skills that you need to make leading feel easier and less exhausting. So there's all sorts of things in there, things like 60 minute peer coaching sessions once a month, things like a Q and A with me, once a month, regular menopause events, access to online training, and also monthly live workshops for myself and guest experts on things like how to say no at work, how to support an overwhelmed team, how and when to coach your team, how to reduce the drama that's going on in your team. We've got lots in there. It's all shaped around what people have told us that they need.

Carla Miller [00:05:03]:
Okay. So hopefully, that sounds brilliant. You're probably thinking how much does it cost? Well, I can tell you how much it's worth, which is well over a £1,000, but that's not what I'm charging for it, and particularly because it's a new membership, I am going to make it really affordable. And for those who are on my early bird wait list, coming this week is a super, super, super bargain. So you want to be on that list. So you want to head over to carlamillertraining.comforward/earlybird, and get yourself on that wait list this week, so you don't miss out on this week's bargains. It will open up more broadly after that, but do go and get yourself on that list, because I would love to be able to work with you more closely. I'd love to be able to introduce you to some other brilliant women, and I just want you to feel supported, and like you can do this.

Carla Miller [00:06:01]:
It doesn't need to be as hard as it sometimes feels. Okay. So I get very excited about women needing, but let's go on to this excellent interview with Aoife O'Brien. Now you're an expert on being happier at work. You even have the podcast, happier at work. Why is this a topic that's close to your heart?

Aoife O'Brien [00:06:27]:
For me, because I always was really happy at work until I wasn't. So I reached a stage in my career where, you know, I was always really ambitious. I always really enjoyed the work I did, the colleagues that I worked with, and I just assumed that that's what work was about. And, you know, I it didn't even enter my mind that work should be hard or work should suck or anything like that. For me, it it was always something quite enjoyable until I reached a stage where it wasn't. So I found myself in this toxic environment, and there's no other way to describe it. There was a huge amount of turnover. It was toxic leadership.

Aoife O'Brien [00:07:03]:
I really liked my colleagues. I liked the work that I did, but overall, the culture was really toxic. And this happened, and it really knocked my confidence quite a lot. It was in a foreign country, so I spent a while traveling on my way home back to Ireland, and I returned back home. And then I took on another role, which was in, a competitor organization, let's say. And while I didn't find it toxic as such, not in the same way that the previous company had been, The second company that that I found, I I found it toxic for me because I wasn't able to thrive. I wasn't able to bring my best to the roles that I was doing. And I suppose, again, it caused me to question everything that was going on.

Aoife O'Brien [00:07:46]:
So I left that role about 6 years ago, and I went on, and I did a coaching, qualification, and then I did a master's in organizational behavior. And it was while I was doing this master's that I, you know, was questioning what could we have done well, at least, you know, all the time, I was thinking, what could I have done differently to manage my career, but also what could the organizations have done? And so from a conversation with, with one of my lecturers, she mentioned it's this idea around fish. And so I became obsessed with this idea. I studied everything. And for me, that's that's the core of being happier at work, and that's how I got to do what I'm doing today.

Carla Miller [00:08:25]:
Excellent. And I've been listening to some of your podcasts, and I really like that you differentiate between a toxic environment more generally and an environment that's toxic to you because you can't thrive there. So I'd love to dive into those and dive into them separately so that we can distinguish between them. So let's take this idea of a generally toxic environment at the moment, and in this episode, we're talking about red flags in particular. What are the red flags for a toxic environment? What do we need to be aware of?

Aoife O'Brien [00:08:54]:
Yeah. So for me, the the toxic, more generally, like, really high turnover of staff, like, that's kind of an obvious sign. If people are joining the organization and they're leaving within 6 months or, you know, if you have close to 50% turnover of staff, I think you can be fairly sure that there's a toxic situation because that's not normal. You know, maybe 10 or 15% turnover is normal, but, like, 50%, that's there's something going on here. There's something radically wrong with what's going on here. For me, what I found with that specific toxic environment was it was at the leadership level. So the way decisions were made, the lack of communication, the lack of transparency, making promises that weren't delivered on, and then at kind of so that's kind of more the the senior leadership. But then on a on an individual level, my relationship with my boss.

Aoife O'Brien [00:09:50]:
So I had one boss who was very laissez faire. So just get on with this. You don't need me to be involved in anything, not providing any sort of guidance, anything like that. And then, you know, I mentioned that there were promises that were made. So I was, told that I was going to be promoted to be a director. I was really excited about this opportunity. I've always been really ambitious. I was really keen.

Aoife O'Brien [00:10:14]:
It was written into my contract as well that it should be expected within 6 months of me joining the organization. And then they promoted my male colleague to be my boss, and I never really thought that there was anything wrong with that, the fact that he was a male. But as my mom keeps reminding me, it's like, it was your male colleague that was promoted. So it was quite a misogynistic environment, an old boys club, male, pale, and stale at the senior leadership level. So he was promoted to be my manager, and, you know, I I gave as good as I got, but he made my life hell. You know? That it was horrible. He he was micromanaging me. He was looking at my diary to see what I was working on.

Aoife O'Brien [00:10:57]:
You know, he was it was just a terrible, terrible situation, and he had previously been my peer and my friend. So that kind of that made it worse. So I suppose for me, you can look at it on a in a few different layers. You can have a think about okay. So the toxic environment, more generally speaking, coming from leadership because leadership is very, nondiverse, let's say. So there it's all the same type of people at that level that they don't communicate things, that there's a lot of gossip going on in the organization, and people are spreading rumors about, like, what could potentially be happening. There's a total lack of transparency and a lack of responsibility. So when I when I confronted them about this situation saying, well, you had said to me that I was going to

Carla Miller [00:11:48]:
to be promoted, and now my colleague is promoted to be my boss.

Aoife O'Brien [00:11:49]:
The the senior leader who made that decision completely backtracked and said, well, he's more your supervisor. And if you want mentoring, then you go to his boss, which to me was just that's take that's a, you know, that's that's the ultimate lack of responsibility for decision making. So he totally backtracked on that, which, again, told me everything that I that I needed to know. So thinking of that senior leadership level, then but then at the more personal level, so the interactions, maybe in my case, it was directly with my boss, but it could also be with your colleagues. You know, are you being excluded from things? Do you get along with them more generally? So so things like that can really they are sure signs that you're in a toxic environment.

Carla Miller [00:12:36]:
And do you think it needs to be all of those to count as red flags? Or I guess my question is, in terms of that, how many red flags do you need to see before you go, I should get myself out of here?

Aoife O'Brien [00:12:48]:
That that's such a good question, and it probably depends on the person because I speak to so many people all the time. They're friends. I speak to clients about the these kinds of things as well. And I think it really depends on the person because so many people will stay in a situation even though they know it's not good for them because they have something that they think they won't get something somewhere else. So they they have a level of flexibility, for example, or they they don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to disappoint people. They feel like they have to stay, and sometimes it's better that w knows. So I know so many people who stay in those situations despite knowing that it's toxic or despite, you know, an inkling that my career is is kind of not really progressing here in the way that I would like to.

Aoife O'Brien [00:13:36]:
And one example of that that I think is a a friend of mine actually rather than a client, and she works with a boss who who he works overseas. So he's not in the same location as her. I was gonna say office because she she's mostly working remotely anyway. But he's not in the same location as she is, and he just sorta leaves her to get on with it. But for me, like, he should be providing guidance and developmental opportunities for her, but she sees this as a positive because he's leaving her alone. So maybe in the longer term, you might think, actually, that's that's a bad thing, and that was detrimental to my career. But at the time, you think this is great because I'm just being left alone to get on with this. So it's probably not until you look back on that situation that you realize that, you know, that that actually quite that helped me back in my career because I didn't have those developmental opportunities that I would have if my boss was invested in in developing me, in giving me exciting projects, whatever that might be.

Carla Miller [00:14:39]:
And I guess sometimes it's a little bit like boiling a frog, isn't it? If you do it really gradually, you don't really realize that you're boiling, you know, if you'd gone into the same situation you ended up with, you might have quite quickly gone, oh, this isn't healthy. But actually, if you start off with something that is healthy and then leadership changes or your line management changes or they make some big culture shifts and I think actually a lot of people joined under certain working conditions during COVID and recently after COVID, and then now everyone's like, right, we'll get back to the office, and that's created a real shift in culture in terms of EDI, for example, as well and and being flexible. So it's it's interesting, isn't it? Now if people are considering wanting to leave their job or thinking, am I in the right job? I just want to direct them to episode 152 of this podcast. It's called, is it time to leave your job? And the most popular podcast we've had for a while, which tells you something, doesn't it, about the world of work. But sometimes, we can either feel or actually be stuck in a situation. So I've been speaking to lots of women recently, for example, who, because of their childcare responsibilities, need flexible working and haven't been able to find new opportunities. So for those how can they use something like Stephen Covey's circle of concern and influence and control to to work out what they can do and what is within their control and what they need to perhaps let go of.

Aoife O'Brien [00:16:13]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, tying in with that idea of the circle of control, I absolutely love that as a model. I think, first of all, it's that mindset shift. So it's rather than I have to stay here because I have childcare obligations and I need a flexible working environment and I can't find anything, It's and, you know, that's a whole separate conversation. I'm hearing so many stories about the lack of flexibility at the moment. Like, don't get me started on that. But it I think it's the mindset shift from I have to stay in this situation to I choose to. I'm choosing to stay in this situation because of the flexible working.

Aoife O'Brien [00:16:46]:
So just that one simple mindset shift, the change in the flexible working. So just that one simple mindset shift, the change in language from I have to to I choose to. I'm choosing to stay here because of reason x, y, and zed. Whatever those reasons might be, I'm actively choosing this situation for myself. And and just that, again, coming back to to this idea of the circle of control, the circle of influence, and then everything else is outside of your control, you can only control how you show up. You can control I was gonna say you can control your emotions. Sometimes you can't really control your emotions. They get the better of us.

Aoife O'Brien [00:17:21]:
But, you know, you can control how you're showing up in the workplace. You can't control other people's behavior or how they show up. So you you show up in the very best way that you can, the very best way that you know how. You can do some techniques to manage your thinking and your mindset around those types of things. But I think being really focused on what it is that you get from this situation. So what are you getting? Is this again, going back to that idea of the flexibility, are you making strides in your career in this particular position as well? Are you doing are you staying where you are, but also at the same time, actively staying where you are, but also on the lookout for something else. So just because you can't find anything now doesn't mean that if you keep looking or if you keep reaching out to your network or connecting with new people that you wouldn't find anything in the future as well. So I think really understanding that you can't control what other people do or how other people treat you, how they behave.

Aoife O'Brien [00:18:23]:
You can only control how you react to those situations and and and, you know, safe in the knowledge that you're not rising to, you know, rising to the base or that you're not sinking low to their level, whatever kind of language you want to use around that. But it's so important to know that there are things that that we should be focusing on ourselves.

Carla Miller [00:18:46]:
I really like that reframe from I have to to I choose to, because even if you're choosing from a small number of choices, it's still that's the best one for you, you have made that choice to stay rather than just leave or rather than go to something else where you can't prioritize your family. Yeah. I remind myself of that sometimes when I feel stuck. It's like, well, actually, there's a downside to everything, and I've chosen this for the positives in it. That doesn't mean there's no downsides, but I don't have to stay in this situation. I'm choosing to continue in this situation.

Aoife O'Brien [00:19:19]:
Yep.

Carla Miller [00:19:20]:
So what about those things that are outside of our control? Perhaps that, micromanaging boss that you talked about, how would and someone's decided to set chosen to stay in that situation. How would you suggest they either try and influence that or make their peace with it?

Aoife O'Brien [00:19:41]:
Yeah. It's just I mean, that's a tough question, and there's a lot of emotions I have around that stuff as well. So I had that well, I've had 3 really terrible bosses in my entire life. And, yeah, you know, if I think back to the very first one, that was hard because it was very early career, and I didn't really know any better. And I thought that's what a boss did. And then maybe a little bit more mid career, I had a boss who, again, made a lot of promises. We had discussions about promotion. You can see how ambitious I was throughout my career.

Aoife O'Brien [00:20:14]:
So in that situation, you know, and he he we had these conversations every couple of weeks, and we got to the end of the period that we had agreed. And we were to we were to discuss the potential promotion that I was getting, and he just had no good reason to not give me a promotion, but he couldn't really articulate it. He has he said he had to refer back to the job description. Like, there was all of these things that showed to me that he's he was really not a good boss, and I'm I'm sure there are so many people out there who are working under bosses who are just not that capable. And I think there's there's a few different ways that you can approach it. So probably even without being really strategic about it, I built a very good relationship with his boss to the extent that she offered to keep me within her team and not report into him. And I just thought, I don't want to stay in the team with him. I want to be away from him so that I don't have to deal with him at all because he was just terrible.

Aoife O'Brien [00:21:19]:
So I think building those other strategic type of relationships. If you're in a large enough organization, there should be opportunities to to switch teams or or something like that. So, you know, again, this is where networking comes in really handy. One thing that I found that is really tempting, but it it was actually really detrimental was in when I was working in another organization, and I used to meet my friends for lunch quite regularly. And we would just have a moan about work, And I would come back feeling really deflated because all we did was complain. And both of those left. 1 was on the contract and the other found a new role. And what I found, my experience of work really improved after they left.

Aoife O'Brien [00:22:02]:
And I thought it was gonna really disapprove because I didn't have anyone to complain about and to vent to and to offload to. Actually, it really improved because I wasn't going and complaining about it every day. So if you can try and find the positives and try and focus on the good things and and stop yourself if you catch yourself complaining or venting or anything like that. So I think if you have to stay in that situation, again, focus on the positives. How am I using my strengths here? Have those difficult conversations that needs to be had. So rather than setting boundaries, oftentimes, we'll just complain to our colleagues. Like, oh, my boss is giving me too much work. My boss is micromanaging me.

Aoife O'Brien [00:22:39]:
You need to have those difficult conversations and set clear boundaries because no one else is going to take responsibility for that. You know, it's same with our career. Sometimes we expect that someone's gonna show up with this amazing job for us that that they didn't even know we were looking for, but it's the most perfect thing. Actually, we need to be the active participants in that and create that for ourselves. So there are some some practical things, I think, that that people can do and maybe one thing that they shouldn't be doing.

Carla Miller [00:23:10]:
I love those. And you're so right about the complaining. I've got quite a few clients, actually, that have said exactly the same thing to me. Like, they've had a bestie at work. They've both had an issue with the same person. Their besties left, and they're worried they've just been deserted, basically, and they'll be all alone. And then actually their mindset has changed because they've stopped focusing on the negative all the time. The negative's still there, but it can become even bigger and exaggerated in your mind, can't it, when you focus on it more.

Carla Miller [00:23:37]:
And I really like that advice about trying to set healthy boundaries, to ask for what you need and want as well. Within Be Boulder, we talk about courageous conversations and setting boundaries because it's so important

Aoife O'Brien [00:23:49]:
to be able to do that. It's it's important and it's hard, but it's the thing is it's something that we have to take responsibility for ourselves. And the people who I think succeed the most at work are the ones who can have those difficult conversations and set those really clear boundaries because they know they're valued. They know what they're worth.

Carla Miller [00:24:10]:
And I think it it sets you up well to be a leader, doesn't it? Being prepared to have difficult and challenging conversations because it's hard to be an effective leader if you just keep avoiding those conversations. Now being in a toxic environment can really impact your confidence as well, can't it? I know I've had people come to me for 1 to 1 coaching or join influence and impact specifically to get over their last experience in the workplace. Have you found it impacts confidence for your clients as well?

Aoife O'Brien [00:24:39]:
Absolutely. And on a on a personal level, it it hugely impacted me, and I don't think I realized just for how long. It was about 10 years that I was carrying that weight of having been in that toxic environment. So the first one that was, you know, where I was working working abroad, and it trickled into every aspect of my life. This is the thing with work. We spend so much time at work, and the impact that it has on every aspect of our lives, you know, on our health, on our relationships, on our hobbies. You know, the amount of time that we have to spend with other people. All of those things are impacted by work.

Aoife O'Brien [00:25:18]:
And if we're having a terrible time at work, we bring that outside of work. We bring that to our health, maybe where we don't have time to cook properly. We don't have time to exercise. We don't have time to spend time you know, we don't have time to spend with loved ones, but the confidence as well. You know, I my confidence was at an all time low through that entire period, and it wasn't until I reached the end of the 10 years that I kind of was looking back on, wow, that really impacted me for much longer than I thought. I knew it had impacted me, but I was still a little bit wary, a little bit holding myself back. So I think we can't underestimate the impact of being in that type of toxic situation and the impact that that has longer term on our confidence in all aspects of our lives. So it's so important, I think, just to acknowledge that, to let people know that if this is how you're feeling, then it's perfectly normal.

Aoife O'Brien [00:26:13]:
And there are ways, and you should do this because sometimes when we're in a toxic situation, we kinda want to get out and take anything. We're like, I'm looking basically for any job right now because I have to get out of the situation that I'm in. We don't put our best foot forward because we're not feeling that confident. And, you know, and and someone shared with this with me recently that the impression that the company she was interviewing with got was she her main motivation was to leave her current role rather than being really excited for the new role. So that comes across as well, and I think we need to to learn how to manage those kinds of things.

Carla Miller [00:26:53]:
Absolutely. And and thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sorry that you that it did have that impact on you for so long, but I think it will be really powerful for other people to listen and go, oh, yeah. Maybe that's what's happened to me. And maybe there isn't anything wrong with me. I was just in a toxic environment. Now lots of people, when they talk to me about this, they say, my biggest fear is if I leave and I end up somewhere even worse. Or I leave and I make that same mistake, because often they will blame themselves and say this is a mistake I made.

Carla Miller [00:27:25]:
I took the wrong job. What advice would you give to someone to make sure that their new job doesn't have exactly the same issues? How do we spot these red flags at at interview stage?

Aoife O'Brien [00:27:36]:
So for me and I want to address that issue of blame first because that was me. Like, the question I had in that first toxic role was, how did I make this decision? How did I make this decision in my career? What could I have done differently and completely and utterly blamed myself? Now while at the same time also thinking, what should they have been doing? Like, what should have been doing? What should the leadership have been doing differently to manage this situation better? So if you're thinking, oh, it's totally my fault and I blame myself, then that is completely normal, and it's not it's not your fault because it happens to so so many people. In terms of being able to identify those things in advance, there are so many tools out there that you can use at the moment. So the likes of Glassdoor, you can have a look on Glassdoor. What what do they say about the CEO? What do they say about the culture? What do the people who are still working there say about the organization? What do the people who've left say about the organization? You can reach out to people reach out to people in your network, people who've worked there previously, people who are currently working there, try and connect and get a feel for what the culture is like. Throughout the entire process, you're gonna get a sense of how they treat people. So I've heard stories of you can come to an interview and at on this day, at this time, and if you can't make it at on this day, at this time, then you're not the right person for this role, which is absolutely ridiculous. There needs to be some sort of flexibility around when you can have interviews, and it's a two way thing as well.

Aoife O'Brien [00:29:06]:
So, like, definitely, a red a red flag for me is that inflexibility at the interview stage, but but you'll get a sense, right, the whole process. So is it taking a long time to hear back from them? Like, is that how their culture is? Does that mean people are overworked? Are they too busy? Are they not addressing things? Are they is it are the processes just really slow? Is it bureaucratic? You know, those kinds of things. But then at the interview itself, you can ask very specific questions, and it's going to be dependent on the very specific situation that you had. But think about what was it or what is it about the place I'm in now that really bothers me? What is really going on here? Is it micromanagement? And, therefore, you need to ask some specific questions about management styles or communicate really clearly about how you like to be managed and how you don't like to be managed. Is it something to do with values? So was there maybe a values mismatch that you value things like transparency and and good communication where the company that you're currently working in doesn't have that. You want to make sure that the company that you're entering into does have that. Was there maybe your needs were not being satisfied. Maybe there wasn't an opportunity to tap into your strengths and really work to your strengths.

Aoife O'Brien [00:30:26]:
So you can ask questions like, well, how do you recognize people's strengths in this organization, or how do you make sure that people are working to their strengths? How do you handle difficult situations? How do you handle conflict? How do you recognize people? Like, they're kind of a little bit more generic, but really have to think about you know, you might have to dig deep. What was the reason? And it it took me a while and reflecting on this because at the the time, I was so innocent. I didn't know. But when I look back on that original situation, it was it was a values mass mismatch, and it was terrible, terrible leadership, really poor leadership, ineffective leadership. And, you know, it's it's difficult, I think, to ask those kinds of questions like, oh, is how is the senior leadership here? They're obviously gonna say, oh, well, it's amazing. But I think the interview stage is an opportunity for both sides to be transparent about, you know, like, we have this very specific challenge that we need to bring someone in to help us with rather than saying everything is rosy, and we just have this open role for no reason in particular. So I think the opportunity to be transparent is so, so important. The second role where it it was less toxic and more I didn't have the opportunity to fully blossom to really thrive.

Aoife O'Brien [00:31:39]:
There there was a limited number of roles and not a huge amount of opportunity to progress, in the way that I wanted to, And I had an option to progress, but not work in an area of strength for me. And then the other option was to stay at the same level that I was and report into someone else doing something I really enjoyed. But I felt like she's going nowhere, so there's no way that if I went into that role, I wouldn't be able to progress. So I think if that's something that's really important to you, then ask those questions. What are the the opportunities like? And, again, on the other side of that, I know I've hired people who it wasn't clear that how ambitious they were when during the interview process, you brought them in, and then the conversation starts. Like, how quickly can I get promoted, or how quickly can I get a pay rise, all of these kinds of things? And the organization I worked in was really bureaucratic, so my hands were sort of tied in that scenario where it was like, it's gonna take at least a year and a half, and they were so keen to progress really quickly. So I think asking all of those questions, knowing yourself what really lights you up, what is it that you're looking for in that next role. There's so many different things, and the interview really should be a two way street.

Aoife O'Brien [00:32:54]:
There's an opportunity for you as an individual to see if this company is a really good fit for you. Do your homework. Have a look at what they say on their website about what it's like to work there. So many companies are making videos, you know, life ash, whatever organization it is. So check out what they're saying and really ask them specific questions about what the culture is like.

Carla Miller [00:33:17]:
Some wise advice there, thank you. I'm passionate about that two way approach to an interview as well, and particularly the more senior you get, the more it needs to be a two way conversation. Now we said we'd also look at environments which perhaps are toxic for us, but no it might not be for someone else. How do we know when the issue isn't the environment, but are fit for the environment?

Aoife O'Brien [00:33:42]:
Yeah. So for me, when I was doing all of this research, I wanted to understand. And like I said, that first situation, it was toxic. There there's no question about it. But the second one was there were other people who were really thriving. There were other people who were blooming. It was in a global organization. The the part of the organization that I worked in was in Ireland.

Aoife O'Brien [00:34:02]:
It was maybe a little bit smaller than what I was used to, and there would have been global opportunities there. Absolutely. And I could see a difference in how the culture was in the UK office, for example, versus in in the Ireland office. So, like, it wasn't a toxic, toxic culture, but just the environment that I was in at that time wasn't conducive. And and I touched on it in my answer to the last question. You know, I didn't feel like there was an opportunity necessarily to progress in the way that I wanted to progress. I wasn't working to my strengths in the most recent role that I took because I took that from a ego base, and I still would make that same decision given the option again. But I, you know, I was working in an area that wasn't really an area that I cared that much about or that I was really good at.

Aoife O'Brien [00:34:49]:
Like, when I work, I want to do a really excellent job, and I want to be recognized as someone who does an amazing job and really excellent and the go to person. That role that I had did not give me that opportunity. I didn't feel like I was really blooming. So for me, a huge thing of that was strengths. So understanding what your strengths are and where you are best placed within that organization to be able to really bloom, and do you have that opportunity? Now another slight aside in relation to that, there could be an an environment that is very macho and sales driven, and that's not to say that women wouldn't thrive there. But if you have that alpha style personality, very focused on results and sales, there's a certain type of personality that would really bloom and thrive in that organization. That person is not me. I would not thrive in that type of environment.

Aoife O'Brien [00:35:41]:
In fact, I'd probably be really intimidated and shy away from it, but other people I know would really thrive in that type of kind of almost cutthroat environment, but it's not for everyone. So I think knowing knowing the kind of situations, like, thinking about the pace that you like to work at. So I found that that last organization I worked in very bureaucratic. I'd like to do quite you know, I work at quite a fast pace, which is great for running my own business, but you have to be aware you need to bring other people along with you as well. So thinking about the pace, thinking about what the culture is like. So it might be a culture that suits some people, but it doesn't necessarily suit you. Do you have the opportunity to use your strengths most of the time when you're working? So really get really clear about what your strengths are, what are the unique capabilities that you bring, and how has everything that you've done up to now give you the unique capability to to do a really good job. Excellent.

Carla Miller [00:36:40]:
And I think for me, the other red flag that something isn't the right fit for me is communication style. So if I think back to 2 organisations that I really did not enjoy working in, they were very passive aggressive communication style. Like, the people at the top said things that they didn't mean, no one would challenge them, and and it was, like, people didn't mean what they said. I was like, why are you

Aoife O'Brien [00:37:06]:
saying something if you

Carla Miller [00:37:06]:
don't mean it? Or why are you not telling me something? Just because I don't want to hear it doesn't mean you can't tell it to me. It doesn't make any sense. Honestly, it drove me mad. People would complain to me about the people above me, and I were trying to address those issues, and they would say, I've never heard anything about this. They would go to those people who would say, No, there's no issue at all. I was like, I'm trying to help you here. But you like this culture, so you stay with that culture, but it's not the place for me. So that communication style, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that kind of culture, but it just really wasn't for me at all.

Carla Miller [00:37:36]:
I'm very transparent in terms of my communication, or at least I hope I am.

Aoife O'Brien [00:37:40]:
Yeah. I mean, that could be a values thing. So you value transparency. That did not exist. It could be a senior leadership thing where the senior leaders were like that, but maybe the other people in the organization weren't necessarily or they haven't gone through, like, what we talked about earlier, where you need to have those very direct conversations. That's what makes a good leader. So maybe they were just ineffective leaders either. So lots of perspectives on that, but definitely sounds like it wasn't the right environment for you, Carla.

Carla Miller [00:38:07]:
Yes. I've got a very strong sense of self preservation, so I know very quickly very quickly indeed. And then I take action very quickly, which not everyone does. And I'm sure with anyone else, maybe they'd look back and regret some of those changes or decisions, but I don't regret a single one. I hate being unhappy at work. I love working. And if the culture isn't right for me, I'm like, nope. I'm out.

Carla Miller [00:38:29]:
This isn't right for me. This is before I had children. Since I've had a child, I work for myself. So it's easier. It's much harder when you've got some kind of responsibilities. And so I think the same advice applies for people in that situation, doesn't it? Look at your values, work out what's important to you, look at when you're interviewing, making it a two way process, really gathering the information you need so that you get better and better at finding the organisations where you can thrive and being really clear about what you need in order to be able to thrive. Okay.

Aoife O'Brien [00:39:05]:
And and I suppose I mean, the kind of building on that point as well, Carla, it's not the end of the world if it happens again. You might see it quite quickly, and you might leave quite quickly because you realize that you've made this mistake. Sorry. That's sounds like kind of a blame thing or you realize that you've found yourself in this situation again and you can get out quickly and it doesn't have to impact. People are so worried about their CVs, but it's on my LinkedIn. It's on my resume. It's on, you know, what am I gonna do? You don't have to put that on your CV. You can say that I that's a time period I was still looking for and or, you know, looking for something.

Aoife O'Brien [00:39:38]:
Or if you're there for a number of months or a year or a couple of years, and then you realize then, you know, you can explain why if you are going into a nontoxic organization, I think they would be very understanding of a reason to leave if you're saying that the current situation is toxic.

Carla Miller [00:39:59]:
Yes. That fear of how it's gonna look on my CV can often stop people from taking action. But we've all made decisions that didn't work out. Let's not call it a mistake, but let's call it a decision that didn't work out. We've all made those, even the people who are interviewing you, probably. So I think we all get that. You will everyone gets 1 or 2. You know, if you've got 10 on your CV, then that says something about maybe you're not cut out for permanent jobs.

Carla Miller [00:40:24]:
Try some interim jobs instead. But, yeah, I think we were all allowed a couple of them. And for me, what I've learned is to trust my intuition. So if I think back to the interviews for the 2 jobs that didn't work out for me, I knew at interview. So at interview, my brain, the logical side of me, was going, this is a really good opportunity. It ticks these boxes. Yes. And my intuition was like, I don't really wanna go back for that second interview.

Carla Miller [00:40:50]:
I'm actually hoping I don't get offered the job because then I don't need to make the decision. I talked myself into those roles, and I never found it hard to get roles. I talked myself into those roles and I always regretted it, so now I have really learned to trust my intuition. If I don't really enjoy that interview, I'm probably not going to really enjoy that job. Now that's me because I love interviews, but having a sense of the people in the room and the dynamic between you and them, I've learned to read that really well now.

Aoife O'Brien [00:41:24]:
Yeah. So part of the learning experience, isn't it?

Carla Miller [00:41:27]:
Absolutely. Now as we finish off, as I mentioned, you have a podcast. Tell us a little bit about your podcast and how people can work with you.

Aoife O'Brien [00:41:34]:
Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So my podcast is called Happier at Work. It's been going for four and a half years now at the time of recording, coming up on 200 episodes, which is kinda scary. You find it wherever. So if you're listening to this on whatever podcast app you're listening to, have a look for happier at work. My podcast should be the first one that pops up.

Aoife O'Brien [00:41:53]:
And coming up on, yeah, 200 episodes. I just, again, at the time of recording, I just reached number 1 in the careers in Ireland in the Apple Podcast charts. I'm really pleased by that Top 3% podcast as well. In terms of working with me, I run a few different programs that really focus on career. This year, a huge area of focus for me and something that I've been thinking and talking about doing for a long time ever since that experience that I had in that first toxic situation is working on a platform, like a technology platform that organizations can use so that people can do their best work essentially. So stamping out that toxicity at work, helping people to use their their values at work, helping people to use their strengths at work, and to talk about what they need and want at work as well. So that's something I'm kind of working on in the background, but you'll find all details on my website, happier at work dot IE.

Carla Miller [00:42:52]:
Brilliant. We will link to that in the show notes and I'll link to my episode on your podcast as well. I think it was in the top 10 downloaded last week.

Aoife O'Brien [00:42:59]:
It was in 2010, I think.

Carla Miller [00:43:02]:
Yes. Yeah. So, we'll get that we'll link to that as a nice segue. But I really recommend Aoife's, podcast. Lots of different topics from all sorts of different angles. So you're gonna find something in there that you're going to want to dive into. Well, thank you very much for sharing your insights, for sharing your personal experience as well, because it's not always easy to do that in a public forum, but I think it normalizes it for other people as well. So it's been a pleasure talking to you, Aoife.

Aoife O'Brien [00:43:30]:
Thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity, Carla.

Carla Miller [00:43:35]:
If you're not already following the podcast in Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen, be sure to set it to follow. There's a little cross in the top right hand corner of the app so that you don't miss future episodes. If you'd like to talk to me about 1 to 1 coaching or the upcoming be bolder confidence course or influence and impact women's leadership program, feel free to head over to my website and book a call, or connect with me on LinkedIn.