Carla Miller [00:00:02]:
Do you find yourself avoiding tough conversations.

Carla Miller [00:00:05]:
At work because you're worried about how.

Carla Miller [00:00:07]:
They'Re going to go or the potential repercussions? If so, you're not alone. And in this episode, we explore how to stop dreading hard conversations and start handling them with clarity and confidence. Conflict at work doesn't have to be scary. In fact, according to my guests on this week's podcast, it's actually a really positive thing. And I can tell you that's quite the reframe for many of us. So on this episode, I talk with Alice Driscoll and Louise vanhaast, authors of Smart Conflict, about why avoiding tough conversations harms teams and how to do them better. You'll hear the difference between task and relational conflict and they're going to share their brilliant 5R model, which really takes you through every step of a hard conversation, from reflect reflection to regulating your emotions to getting ready to dealing with the response. And I think this is really, really important to repairing afterwards when that needs to happen.

Carla Miller [00:01:14]:
So when you listen, you're going to pick up some quick, practical tips that you can use to calm your nerves before those conversations land your message better and repair relationships. Alice and Louise are founders of the Powerhouse, a global leadership development and cultural transformation business on a mission to unlock human and organizational potential. Their new book, Smart Conflict, draws on the latest evidence and thinking from psychology and coaching research, equipping you with the skills you need to manage conflict with confidence and compassion. This is Influence and Impact for Leaders, the podcast that helps leaders like you increase your impact and build a happy and high performing team. I'm your host, Carla Miller, founder of Carla Miller Training, Impactful Training and co founder of Impactful Teams. Each episode of this podcast delivers focused, actionable insights you can implement immediately to be better at your job without working harder.

Carla Miller [00:02:17]:
Now before we roll the episode, a.

Carla Miller [00:02:19]:
Little update for you because I know that since about last November I have been banging on about the fact that that I was planning to run the Great North Run. And as I record this I am recovering from running the Great North Run. So firstly, a massive thank you to anyone who sponsored me. I know as well as lots of my friends and people that I've worked with some podcast listeners who have never met me in person and may not even have ever worked with me directly. Really generously sponsored me which is fantastic. I raised in the end 1041 pounds for breakthrough T1D which is supporting people with type 1 diabetes and trying to find a cure. Something as regular listeners will know, that's very Close to my heart. Because my son has type 1 diabetes, I did not train enough.

Carla Miller [00:03:13]:
So the Great North Run, partly injury, partly what a new type of HRT did to my body, which wasn't awesome, and partly just the practicalities. So over the summer holidays, which should have been peak training time, I only managed two runs because I had my son with me pretty much 24 7. So I had this idea that it's okay because I've done enough running and I am fit enough generally that I can take it at a minute, nice, easy, enjoyable pace and just soak up the atmosphere and enjoy the experience. So that was my plan going into the run that got a little bit derailed by the fact that I discovered that the coach that I booked to go home was going at a set time, whether I was on the coach or not. And that set time did not leave me a very long time to run. There are 60,000 odd people that do the Great North Run and they put you in waves. And I was in the last wave, which meant that I was starting at least an hour after the race itself started. It takes you that long to cross the start line, you basically queue for a good hour and a half before you even start.

Carla Miller [00:04:26]:
And if I'd been at the back of that pink wave, then there was.

Carla Miller [00:04:30]:
No chance I would have caught my coach. So suddenly the idea of taking at.

Carla Miller [00:04:33]:
A really nice, relaxing, enjoyable pace was.

Carla Miller [00:04:36]:
Not very practical if I didn't want to get stranded in Newcastle. So I was actually more stressed about missing my coach than I was about doing the running. Anyway, I ended up running much faster than I had planned to. Not fast compared to most people, but I did it in 2 hours and.

Carla Miller [00:04:54]:
46 minutes, which is only about 20.

Carla Miller [00:04:56]:
Minutes slower than the time I took to do it 13 years ago when I was much younger, obviously fitter, and had had much more time to train. It was also much flatter last time.

Carla Miller [00:05:08]:
Amazing atmosphere that was good.

Carla Miller [00:05:10]:
Very hilly.

Carla Miller [00:05:11]:
So hard to make it an enjoyable.

Carla Miller [00:05:13]:
Actual running experience unless you are super fit.

Carla Miller [00:05:16]:
But I was really, really proud of.

Carla Miller [00:05:19]:
Myself that I had done it and proud of my medal, even though apparently it's got the wrong city or the wrong river on it or something.

Carla Miller [00:05:27]:
Anyway, so that has been the big event happening in my life recently. Also wanted to give you an update on impactful teams.

Carla Miller [00:05:35]:
So you heard recently about the start of impactful teams. Lara, my co founder, was on the podcast. She's going to be back for more episodes soon. We just didn't have time to record any over the summer together but that has started really well. We've got some clients that we're working with to help their teams work better together using the teams that model that we have. We're doing some insights training as well and we're talking to all sorts of teams about working together, from operational teams and marketing teams through to leadership teams.

Carla Miller [00:06:11]:
So that's kicked off really well.

Carla Miller [00:06:13]:
We're really, really enjoying it. And if you haven't taken the scorecard, the impactful team scorecard, do do that. And if there's anything you want to chat about in terms of your team and how we might be able to support, support, then do get in touch with me. Okay, let's find out how we do conflict the smart way.

Carla Miller [00:06:35]:
Alice and Louise, welcome to Influence and Impact for Leaders.

Louise Van Haarst [00:06:39]:
Thank you. Great to be here.

Carla Miller [00:06:42]:
Must be very exciting to finally have your book in your hands after all this hard work. How does it feel?

Alice Driscoll [00:06:49]:
Well, it's surreal, doesn't it?

Carla Miller [00:06:51]:
Yeah.

Alice Driscoll [00:06:52]:
Yes, it does feel great to be authors. And you know when you first sign that contract, this is like the moment that you've had in your mind to power you through those early starts and those weeks where you think, oops, have not managed to write any words this week.

Louise Van Haarst [00:07:06]:
Yes. Yeah. It's a mix of excitement and surrealness and sort of just the thrill of being ready to put it in the hands of real readers and get it out there.

Alice Driscoll [00:07:17]:
Yeah, yeah.

Louise Van Haarst [00:07:17]:
We wait for the feedback. Yeah.

Carla Miller [00:07:19]:
Yes. It's so nice to have that, to see the impact of your work, isn't it? For me, after my book had been published, I had to do a lot.

Carla Miller [00:07:27]:
Of running because I had eaten my.

Carla Miller [00:07:29]:
Way through writing the book. Every time it got hard, I was like, I'm just going to reach for the biscuit tin. So I was getting exercised at that point.

Alice Driscoll [00:07:38]:
Yeah. A lot of cake has been consumed. That would be true.

Carla Miller [00:07:41]:
That is why I'm not doing a second book. I was like, one is enough. So your book Smart Conflict is all about conflict at work. Why does conflict at work matter and.

Carla Miller [00:07:53]:
Why do we have to learn about it? Can't we just avoid it altogether?

Louise Van Haarst [00:07:57]:
That is a really great question, I think. Why does it matter at work? There's a few good reasons for that. One, we know that the ability to have hard conversations and be able to debate and be able to kind of kick around a task and make mistakes and challenge each other is kind of the foundations of high performance. It's very important in psychological safety, as we know. But anything around high performing teams would tell you, you've got to be able to challenge each other safely. Why can't we just avoid it? Because you lose so much by not having those hard conversations, particularly at work.

Alice Driscoll [00:08:31]:
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, just to put it into numbers, teams that have that lean into hard conversations and that kind of master this skill see on average like a 22% performance uplift. So there's reasons in terms of a carrot, a reason to kind of run towards this because it's a massive performance driver. Probably the single biggest intervention that you could make in terms of high performing teams. And of course when we, when we maintain avoidance, when we don't lean in, there's not only the opportunity that's not realized, but it's actively damaging as well. So, you know, it's likely that you're not just going to kind of continue in mediocrity, but you're actually going to see sort of performance downgraded. So, you know, there's a, I think there's a burning platform. But yeah, avoidance is nonetheless the norm.

Carla Miller [00:09:20]:
It is. I remember having a coach once who said to me that the quality of your leadership depends on your willingness to have the difficult conversations. And it comes up quite a lot, as you can imagine, in my coaching sessions as well. And when we talk about hard conversations.

Carla Miller [00:09:35]:
What sort of conversations did you have in mind as you were writing the book?

Alice Driscoll [00:09:40]:
So we do outline in the book kind of seven types of hard conversation that you could sort of, you know, different categories of conversation. But what we mean by hard conversation is any conversation that you perceive to be at risk of having a kind of negative outcome. So the reason that we avoid conversations is because there is some fear there, there is some concern that, you know, we're going to go and have this conversation and we're going to damage the relationship in the process. So you can imagine the types of conversations that we, we typically think of. And this is giving somebody some difficult feedback, you know, creates a lot of anxiety for people, landing what, you know, you worry would be bad news for people. So that could be, you know, return to work messaging at an organizational level, not necessarily just at an individual level. But I suppose it's anything where you think this message is not necessarily going to be heard and land well, that would be what we would class as a hard conversation.

Carla Miller [00:10:44]:
And the book's called Smart Conflict. What is your definition of smart conflict?

Louise Van Haarst [00:10:50]:
We do define it up front in one of the first pages of the book. But the way we think about this is if you take the two words, being smart is about Being intelligent or making intelligent choices. And conflict has a range of meanings. So it can be a system sustained kind of hardened disagreement that's been going on for a long time. It can be a moment of disagreement or a sense of discord. And our approach is, what we really want people to be thinking about is there's not one size fits all to how you might address a particular conflict or a particular hard conversation. What we want you to do is get really smart at choosing which style, which way of opening it, which way of holding it, which way of responding is going to fit to the situation you're in. So it's really about.

Louise Van Haarst [00:11:36]:
Often I. I still work with, and I always have worked with people who tend to be quite aggressive and are looking to kind of work on that and their leadership style. And one of the things they go is, oh, God, you know, this is really time consuming. You know, can't I just hit them with it straight? I'm like, you can, but it might not always be the smartest thing to do. There are many other choices you can make that kind of be kind of firing from the hip. So that's what we really mean. It's about having that ability to sit back and go, oh, what am I going to choose now in this moment? To kind of have the best result that I want.

Alice Driscoll [00:12:07]:
Another kind of shorthand that I was talking to a client about this morning, when we think about smart conflict is just how do I say the thing that I need to say, but how do I make it? How do I deliver that in a way that means it will be heard and that it will set the conversation up for success? So, you know, I think it's this differentiation between content and delivery. So for us, smart conflict is absolutely not avoidant, is leaning in, it's delivering hard truths, but it's all about the delivery that makes it smart.

Carla Miller [00:12:41]:
The number of times I have conversations with a coaching client and they'll say what they really wish they'd said in that meeting, which is what they genuinely feel, but they think I can't say that.

Carla Miller [00:12:50]:
And I'm like, actually, you just really.

Carla Miller [00:12:51]:
Clearly articulated your point. It's your fear that was holding you back, not being inarticulate about it. And I find that, particularly with women, I'm interested to know.

Carla Miller [00:13:03]:
So the two of you have obviously written a book on conflict.

Carla Miller [00:13:06]:
Are you both naturally really good at doing this or have you learned from your mistakes?

Carla Miller [00:13:12]:
I'd love to know what your kind of natural approach to conflict was and how you've evolved.

Alice Driscoll [00:13:16]:
It yeah, definitely the latter. So it's interesting we talked. We're talking about this a bit yesterday as well, weren't we, Louise?

Louise Van Haarst [00:13:24]:
But idea.

Alice Driscoll [00:13:25]:
You know, we have written a book about conflict because as a result of finding it so difficult ourselves and having such negative experiences in the workplace around this in our early careers really propelled us to dive really, really deeply into working out how to get better at this. So Louise always says, you know, all research is me search. So the expertise has come from a place of lacking.

Louise Van Haarst [00:13:51]:
Yeah.

Alice Driscoll [00:13:51]:
Of really being absolutely sucking at this and being, you know, certainly for me, highly avoidant and Louisiana. Slightly different.

Louise Van Haarst [00:14:01]:
Yes. I was not on the avoidance scale. I was probably more somewhere towards the aggressive end, but not finding it pleasant. So sort of maybe holding back and then becoming quite cross and then kind of releasing my kind of aggressive, inner alpha self when it wasn't always or very often the most effective thing to do. And I think I had a couple of experiences where I really got a sense of how other people were experiencing that and it was not very pleasant and learned that I had to do things a different way without losing the benefits of actually being quite an assertive person who's willing to kind of stand up and say the important thing, say the true thing, kind of tolerate the discomfort of doing that. And that was really my journey. So how do I remain assertive without damaging the relationship, without damaging my own career prospects? By kind of losing my temper sometimes?

Carla Miller [00:14:56]:
That's fantastic. You've got those two different perspectives and that you can learn from those and how. There's a lot in the book and we're going to talk through your fantastic model, but how did you evolve that? Like, how did you work out that that's what works.

Louise Van Haarst [00:15:10]:
So we met, didn't we? Yeah.

Alice Driscoll [00:15:12]:
Studying at Henley for the masters in behavior change and coaching. And we started sharing a little bit about our work. And we realized that both. That we were coming at it personally, having these slightly different experiences, but also that how that had manifested itself professionally. So, you know, I was working a lot with clients who were kind of cool, caught up in. In conflict and not able to see their way out. So I was doing a lot of work with teams with co founders who were looking for some external support at that point to kind of find a path through because there was so much at stake. But walking away just felt like the absolute kind of last, last resort.

Alice Driscoll [00:15:54]:
So I was doing a lot of work there and then, Louise, you were doing a lot of work with CEOs.

Louise Van Haarst [00:15:58]:
And kind of leaders who were often going through quite difficult change periods or they'd just taken on a new leadership role where they were going to have to make some difficult choices, deliver some difficult messages and were just finding themselves almost physically unable to do it. And so really working with them to learn how to plan what to say, how to kind of build up the tolerance and regulate themselves to say it, how to recover afterwards, how to repair the relationship if it had landed quite badly. And when we got together, interestingly so Alice was already beginning to think about a kind of a conflict at work product and said, would I come along with her and help co deliver because it's quite, quite a big company on the table at that point. And as we were doing the design together and she was talking me through what she'd already had, I said, oh, I think there's maybe this is missing and maybe, oh, we could bring in this. And we realized as we delivered that a few times with that client, other clients, it was evolving into this sort of full methodology that was actually one really landing with everybody we were training with, but two was kind of bringing in all those thousands of hours of experience, all that test and learn we kind of done separately. We were able to bring it together into, into one model.

Alice Driscoll [00:17:11]:
I think we were lucky in that way. It's unusual in that very early conversation, although we had both had so much, had put so many sort of thousands of hours on the clock, one to one with clients and with teams in those two areas. So helping people prepare to speak up more, to lean in and then at my end, helping people to land difficult messages and repair and really, you know, get them back on track or finding a way forward, that it was only in that first conversation coming together, that the IP that, that shared IP fell out of us right from day one. So it was always a shared product right from the get go. And yeah. And that became the five well model.

Carla Miller [00:17:55]:
I love it. And as I was reading it, I was reading it with my individual hat on thinking, how does an individual leader deal with this? But I came away from it and thought, I think every leadership team needs to collectively read this, particularly the repair bit, which we'll talk about later, because there's so much need for that and.

Carla Miller [00:18:12]:
I don't think that leaders are trained in that as much as they could be.

Carla Miller [00:18:16]:
And in fact the whole model is fantastic because there isn't a model out there for this. There's lots of feedback models. But as someone who trains in this, I was like, oh, I will be quoting the Driscoll van Haast model every now and then going forward.

Louise Van Haarst [00:18:32]:
That's great. Yeah.

Alice Driscoll [00:18:33]:
And that's really.

Louise Van Haarst [00:18:34]:
That was our kind of wish. I think we really fundamentally believe in this, in the mission. We really believe that if people could get better at this, workplaces are going to improve, team performance, are going to improve, people's experience in the workplace is going to improve, their stress levels are going to drop, their ability to share their ideas and innovate is going to go up. And so that's something we're really excited to hear from people like you. And the book house is not even out yet, but the fact that you're saying, I'm going to be starting to use this within some of my teamwork is just music to our ears.

Alice Driscoll [00:19:08]:
We had a lot of conversations about the team and individual piece, and when we first wrote the book, we overwrote it hugely. Because when you bring in, you know, the team piece as well, that we realize that's like a whole book in itself. So we took a lot of that out. But we are. We have created a smart contract for teams workbook that can be used alongside the book just as a free download from the website. So I think, you know, as you say, we've pitched this one primarily with the individual leader in mind for them to kind of read it. But of course, course, the thing about conflict is it really exists in relation to others. So of course they're going to be thinking about their teams the whole way through.

Alice Driscoll [00:19:50]:
So, yeah, it's great to hear that, actually, because that was our hope.

Carla Miller [00:19:55]:
And we'll be sure to link in the show notes to your website and that workbook because I'm sure there'll be listeners going, huh, I need to go and have a look at that right now. Now, in the book, you talk about an important distinction between task conflict and relational conflict.

Carla Miller [00:20:10]:
Can you speak to that, a little.

Carla Miller [00:20:12]:
Bit of why it's important to distinguish between the two?

Louise Van Haarst [00:20:16]:
Sure. So what we firmly believe is that we need more conflict at work, not less, which is potentially quite a controversial statement. But there is a reason we say that, because there are these two forms of conflict. Relational conflict is the type that we tend to fear.

Alice Driscoll [00:20:34]:
So.

Louise Van Haarst [00:20:34]:
So it's you versus me. I'm right, you're wrong, I win, you lose. I'm going to hammer my point until I win, and that is going to do the relationship some damage. Almost certainly the kind of conflict we do want is task conflict, which is you and me against the problem. So no longer are we kind of trying to score points against each other. We're trying to work out what is the task at hand, what is the problem we're going to solve, and how do we do that together in a way that's going to build the relationship and it's going to allow us to kind of challenge each other and bring alternative data and ask difficult questions and maybe it could even feel a little bit crunchy. But that is what we really feel that real collaboration looks like is that kind of task conflict. So we really want people to shift their mindset into being a healthy, good kind of conflict at work.

Louise Van Haarst [00:21:24]:
But this is where we have to get smart about how do we create those conflicts, conditions, and how does it work.

Carla Miller [00:21:30]:
If you're an individual reading this and you're like, okay, I'm going to embrace conflict from now on. Can you just show up differently? Do you need to have a conversation.

Carla Miller [00:21:39]:
With someone, go, let's both go and read the book.

Carla Miller [00:21:41]:
Or let me explain to you that this is about the task, not the relationship. Like, what do you do as an individual that wants to shift into this.

Carla Miller [00:21:49]:
But doesn't know how to tackle the fact that they're going to be showing up differently?

Alice Driscoll [00:21:55]:
I think there's a, there's an, there's no one right answer. There's a, there are a number of options. So I was working with a client actually on exactly this, which is how much signaling and signposting do you do and how much do you just kind of go and execute a plan? And I think, you know, so the most basic thing you can do is you can read the book and you can just start showing up differently. And we have lots of our clients who have attended who, who have just gone and done that and got great results. So it's possible that people are not noticing, and it's possible that they're noticing but going along with it. And I think it really depends how much of a leap it is from how your way of being now, you know, because I think the biggest shift for people and the biggest kind of suspicion or kind of unnerving of when somebody suddenly shows up differently is less in what they do, but just the way they're showing up. Right? So it really depends on how you're showing up today. And if you're fine tuning some kind of strategy stuff, you can probably dive in.

Alice Driscoll [00:22:55]:
The other end of the scale is that you signpost it up front, which is, I've read this book. I've, I've done this course. I've, I've been doing this research and I'm going to try Some. I'm going to try experimenting with some new ways. I'd love to hear how that lands with you and get kind of any feedback. But if I'm showing up a bit differently, that's the kind of context. So that would be like the full signposting. And I think there's something in between too, which is you dive in, but when you notice that somebody is reacting in a slightly kind of unnerving or sort of odd like why, why are you suddenly asking me my opinion when normally you just dive in, give me the answer.

Alice Driscoll [00:23:33]:
That you could call that out and say, oh, I'm noticing some hesitation like what, what's happening for you right now? And then it might be like, oh, I. I'm just not sure you've ever asked me my opinion before. And then you can have that conversation which is, you know what? I think you might be right. And I've realized I should do that more, you know, so you don't necessarily have to kind of bring them fully kind of into the tent with the full kind of scope. And I mean, you must find this, Carla. But some of some of your one to one clients, they don't all want to reveal they're having coaching to everybody. Although of course I think as coaches we encourage that as much as possible and of drive for that transparency. So I think there's a number of ways they could go about it.

Alice Driscoll [00:24:14]:
But we have certainly seen a lot of clients have a lot of success just diving straight into the new protocols.

Carla Miller [00:24:21]:
I love that. And I think when we show up differently and bring a different energy, a more receptive, curious energy, then people do respond to that over time as well. So let's hear about your 5R model. Are you able to give us an overview first and then we'll dive into the.

Carla Miller [00:24:41]:
The individual elements.

Louise Van Haarst [00:24:43]:
Sure. So the five Rs are reflection. So this is thinking about reflecting on our own conflict settings and why we show up, how we do and how we tend to show up in different scenarios. Also beginning to reflect on how other people might be set and how we're coming together. So reflection, regulation. So the literal regulation of your nervous system, one of the things that's a big barrier to having hard conversations is the fact that we just get so anxious and worked up and feel that we can't do it or the risk is too high or we can't get the words out. So learning how to regulate in a way that works for you and the point you're making before how we show up really influences how the other person shows up. So thinking about the co regulation of that and the influence we can have there, readiness.

Louise Van Haarst [00:25:32]:
This is getting ready with the strategies for the particular conversation where you're going to have it, how are you going to have it, what words are you going to use, what message do you absolutely want to land, and how are you going to kind of put that together in phraseology? Getting really, really granular about these strategies. Then the fourth R is response. So this is also the thing that stops us having those hard conversations. What happens if it all goes wrong? What if they cry? What if they lose their temper? What if I cry or I lose my temper? What if they say something, something completely unexpected? What am I going to do? We really lean into thinking about having your responses ready, having forms of words ready, having things you're going to do if a turn happens, either negatively or positively, you have the opportunity to open up the floor for an even greater conversation. And the fifth one is that really important one, repair. What do you do after you've had the conversation? What are the aftercare steps you need to take to get the relationship back on track? Even if nothing particularly dramatic has happened? Having hard conversations can just cause a little bit of kind of a sense of discord, a kind of sense of disconnection, a sense of discomfort between the two of you, which can become a problem. So we think about, instead of doing what we classically do is go, oh, I'm just going to give them some space, I'm just going to give them a little bit of time. And actually that in that void, some unfortunate things can grow up.

Louise Van Haarst [00:26:58]:
We lean straight back into it and think about repairing a relationship that says we're okay. Even if this is hard and it's still ongoing, we're okay. So it's a really kind of fundamental part of that cycle.

Carla Miller [00:27:11]:
I think it's fantastic how you've taken it right from the very beginning. You're not just diving straight into these are the words that you can use. You've taken it right from that initial reflection through to, to the aftermath of it as well. Now, do you need to do all five or can you pick and choose the bits that you need?

Alice Driscoll [00:27:34]:
I mean, we've designed the model, it's a circular model because there is no obvious place to start. I think if you're interested in just starting to explore this and understand it, reflection is always a great place to start and that's always where we start in our training. But we really designed it as something that you can use to triage whatever is drawing you to this right now. So maybe you've got a particular dynamic, a particular relationship in mind that you know is not working as well as you would had hoped. Or there's a general feeling that as a team, you know, the trust is not as high right now as maybe either it has been or you think it could be. So we really invite you to look at the model and go, where does it make sense for me to start right now? Have I got a specific conversation that's in the diary that I just need to prepare for? Then you might start with readiness. And then when you've got a bit more time, you might go back to reflection to go, actually, what are those childhood cultural and societal influences that help explain what my relationship with conflict is today and how that might be different? How might that be different for other team members, members or this other person that I'm in this kind of difficult spot with? So no, there's no one place. And we have designed the book.

Alice Driscoll [00:28:47]:
Each chapter is an R with the view that you could go straight to repair. So maybe you're coming at this because there's a relationship that has, you know, been tricky or there's been a specific blow up or maybe it's just been death by a thousand cuts and you know, there's no relationship right now and you're thinking, how do I even. You can start to kind of build that bridge again. Then you just can, you can hop straight up to R. I think the first three chapters are context setting, you know, we, we really explore, you know, why are we so afraid of conflict? What, what are the differences in our gender in, in the way that we show up and all the kind of more journalistic, researchy parts of the book if you like. But after that, that part two is very practical and you just go, go where you need to.

Carla Miller [00:29:35]:
And in that part two there are, there are so many different points under each of those Rs. So rather than me choose, what we decided to do is to let you pick one of your favourite practical tips from each of those R's so that people go away from listening to this.

Carla Miller [00:29:51]:
Hopefully to go straight and buy your.

Carla Miller [00:29:53]:
Book to get more detail, but with some really practical things they can apply.

Carla Miller [00:29:57]:
So let's start with reflection. What's one thing you want to share about that reflection part of the model.

Louise Van Haarst [00:30:05]:
Oh, so I think one tip, one practical thing people could do straight away is to go away and ask themselves the question on a typical work day. I haven't seen my coach, I haven't been to the gym, I haven't slept well, it's a rainy Tuesday. I come to work and somebody says, oh, can we talk? Or oh, can I give you some feedback? And you are surprised. What tends to be your default response? What goes on internally? How do you feel? How do you tend to react to that person? And really think very honestly about where you tend to go most? Because that is where we can begin to reflect and say, ah, I will go into nervous system free fall, I will begin to panic, I will not want to have the conversation or, or I will hear that feedback. And first of all, I feel really defensive. Okay, that's interesting information because what we find from our clients is they tend to go through life with those settings kind of on autopilot, not realizing that there's a choice there. And when we kind of go, oh, this is my default, but I don't always have to go there, I can take a breath and think, okay, what is my next move? What choice do I make next? So to just go away and just think about if we had to give. You had to give yourself one.

Louise Van Haarst [00:31:23]:
What's your default conflict style?

Alice Driscoll [00:31:24]:
At work we've defined six sort of default conflict styles and we have handily created a free diagnostic which is also available on the website where you can, you can take the quiz, good Cosmo quiz and, and get a bit of a diagnostic around what your default conflict style is in different configurations, contexts.

Carla Miller [00:31:44]:
I love a good Cosmo quiz.

Louise Van Haarst [00:31:45]:
So that sounds research fact, Alice, but all the fun of a Cosmo quiz, brilliant.

Carla Miller [00:31:52]:
And the second R in terms of the order of the book is regulation. So a top tip from that please.

Alice Driscoll [00:31:59]:
Okay, so our most popular top tip from this that we use in our workshops is probably the physiological sigh. And the reason people love this is that, you know, often people, people are like, I don't have a lot of time. So this is a very, very quick intervention that is really research backed that you could do even whilst in the moment. And it's really, really simple. And all you need to do is to take one lung full inhale, which you know, could be very dramatic but you can do quite kind of subtly. So and then when you think your, your lungs are as, you know, full as you can get them, just to top it up with an additional inhale so that you've really like maxed out kind of that lung capacity and then to take a very, very slow exhale. So it kind of looks like, and it has an incredibly immediate impact just on kind of lowering that cortisol and starting to Kind of re regulate now even just doing one in that could be a moment of anxiousness. It could be, you know, hard conversation or otherwise.

Alice Driscoll [00:33:06]:
Quite a good tip for just general moments where you think I just need to kind of find myself a little bit here. But that's a really popular one.

Louise Van Haarst [00:33:13]:
Yeah, I just did one then and it can be incredibly subtle. So. And do two or three. So if you need to do two or three and you can sort of feel that kind of sense of. It's almost like a kind of relief as you're, as you're taking that, that last exhale.

Carla Miller [00:33:28]:
I think that's such a good tip because we want something that makes our body feel more comfortable as well, doesn't it? And it grounds us too. Fantastic. So readiness, the next R is very much about preparing for that conversation, is that right?

Louise Van Haarst [00:33:43]:
Exactly. And I think what's always surprises about teaching readiness is how transformational the idea of just taking the time to think about what is it that I want to say in this conversation, how transformational that can be. And it's amazing how few of us actually do that. We think, oh, I'll just kind of turn up and wing it and see what happens. And then we're surprised that we don't get a result. So I think our best tip is literally two minutes before you're going to have the conversation. If that's all the time you've got, but ideally in advance, write yourself five or six bullet points around. What is the message that I absolutely must land by the end of this conversation and how will I know it's happened and what are the forms of words that I'm going to use to get that across and really thinking about again how we show up.

Louise Van Haarst [00:34:30]:
How do I make my language as judgment free as possible? So how can I think about observing maybe something that's happened in the past or something that's going in the project or something in the behavior? And how can I express the impact of what I've observed, so what effect it had on me on somebody else on the team? So we're getting really, really clear about what we've observed and the impact we've had. And removing as much judgment that we can from our language really helps the other person, one, to be receptive and to hear what we're saying. But two, it kind of takes down that risk of a defensive response.

Alice Driscoll [00:35:06]:
We have a five step model for structuring the conversation in the books. Help expediate the go into preparing detail.

Louise Van Haarst [00:35:15]:
About how to do great observation and pasta men's fantastic.

Carla Miller [00:35:18]:
And I think just that writing it down and giving it that second look is so helpful, isn't it? Because when you do look at it with that lens of is there judgment in here? How is this going to land? You can pick up things that would not have been obvious if you'd just gone with it the first time. Okay. And then response. This is about dealing with how others respond or predicting it.

Alice Driscoll [00:35:43]:
Yeah. So, of course, the one thing we can't control is what happens. You know, what we'll be on the receiving end of, no matter how well we've kind of prepared what we're going to say. And so response is really the best tip I think we offer is prepare for the unexpected. And actually, your brain can't do. Do that when it's kind of in the moment, or it's really, really hard to do that in the moment.

Louise Van Haarst [00:36:09]:
When you're in fight, flight, or freeze, it's very hard to do that.

Alice Driscoll [00:36:12]:
Absolutely. So the best thing you can do is do it in advance. And so we really campaign for having a prepared response up your sleeve. So how do you make sure that in the moment, your brain is not having to work hard to come up with something that you know that when the unexpected happens, you are ready to go with? I'm just going to grab a glass of water. Because that's what you say in those moments, no matter what the moment is or, you know, one Louise taught me that I now use with my children as well as at work, which is. I wasn't expecting this. I'm just going to need a moment to come up, you know, to gather my thoughts, you know, or maybe a week or whatever it is. So prepared responses is one of our favorites for that.

Carla Miller [00:36:55]:
Thanks, Alice. And I've just realized that at the beginning, I didn't get you to both say who you were. So this is Alice that just spoke. I just realized I can see your faces. But those that are just listening will be like, we hear these two lovely voices.

Carla Miller [00:37:08]:
We don't know which belongs to which.

Carla Miller [00:37:10]:
So that was Alice and then repair. Repair, which I find a super interesting area. What are some of your favorite tips.

Carla Miller [00:37:21]:
From the repair section?

Louise Van Haarst [00:37:23]:
So I'm Louise speaking now to help with the voices. So, see, repair is an incredibly important concept in all of human relationships. It's spoken about most kind of in child development, when we think about the cycle of rupture and power and how important it is for children to witness that if we have a rupture with somebody, we have an argument, somebody shouts, at us that the relationship can be repaired and we can move on from it. But it hasn't really kind of got into the adult psychotal literature that much outside family therapy and so certainly not at work. So this is another thing we're sort of huge advocates for, is to really be thinking about repairing relationships when they've gone through any kind of even a minor rupture. So when we talk about rupture, it's not necessarily a massive argument. This can be those kind of moments of discord and disconnection where it's just a bit off. So top tips are to think about absolutely leaning back into the relationship if we've had a difficult moment, a hard conversation within.

Louise Van Haarst [00:38:22]:
As soon as possible. Definitely within 24 hours. If you feel cross, give it 24 hours to allow your nervous system to calm down, but lean back in. And it's really anything that signals to the other person that we're okay. So that was hard, but we're okay. So you could say if you've had a difficult conversation, which was absolutely what you needed to say, but you didn't find it easy and you did. The other person you could go back and say, just wanted to say thank you for engaging me with me on that. It was difficult, but I really appreciate your engagement and how you showed up in that conversation.

Louise Van Haarst [00:38:57]:
It could be that we need to do a little bit more than that. And in all the relationship research, the Gottmans have researched this at length, actually in marriage research, but it holds up very well in workplace and team research as well, that we need between three and five positive interactions with somebody for every negative interaction, just to keep the relationship in equilibrium. So, yeah, we might have our first bid for a pair in saying thank you for having that conversation with me. But that's just one. So we need to have between two and four more where you might make somebody a cup of tea, you might show an interest in how their weekend was, you might ask them how a project's going, you might sincerely appreciate something that you saw them say in a meeting or a piece of work. It's just kind of completely continuing to signal, I appreciate you, we're good, I see you. You know, our relationship is okay, even if this thing is still running alongside it.

Carla Miller [00:39:52]:
And what do you do if they don't think your relationship is okay? Like if they are choosing to detach from communicating with you, which does happen on occasion, doesn't it?

Louise Van Haarst [00:40:03]:
It really does.

Alice Driscoll [00:40:04]:
Yeah, it does. I think there's, you know, a couple of things. One is you can Only repair if both parties actively want to repair. But I think what we want to avoid is there not being a repair because there's a misunderstanding that I want to, but they don't, when actually they do. And so we, you know, part of this is about kind of de. Risking there being a long term rupture for the wrong reasons because there's no. I just think there's probably. I personally just find there's nothing more tragic than the idea of people not speaking for, you know, 10 years and then finding out that there was.

Alice Driscoll [00:40:43]:
It was all based of a slight misunderstanding. So what we're really trying to do here is make sure that people have the right to decide not to engage in a relationship, even at work. But let's make sure they have all the information with which they can make that kind of adult decision. Obviously, in a team context, there's enormous implications to deciding to stop talking to a colleague, which may or may not be tolerable for that team and that organization, which is a whole separate piece of the puzzle. So I think we have to acknowledge that we can't control other people's participation. Let's at least make sure that we can sleep well at night knowing that we have shared our truth, feelings and any optimism and hope that this can be repaired. Because I think that belief that it's irrecoverable is part of the challenge of it not being possible. Right.

Alice Driscoll [00:41:37]:
We have to believe at least that there's a glimmer of light, that maybe we can hold on to this idea that this could get turned around again.

Louise Van Haarst [00:41:44]:
Yeah. And it's very easy to feel slighted. So you might make one or two bids for repair and the other person doesn't pick it up and you think, well, that's it. They're not interested. This is kind of where the smart conflict methodology comes in. Because you go, huh, that's interesting. They're not responding to my bids for repair. I need to ask them what they need.

Louise Van Haarst [00:42:06]:
So it's not. Again, it's not leaning out, it's leaning in and saying, I really would like to make this okay with you. What do you need from me? What do we need to do together? How can we kind of rebuild from this point? Which is not something that we're used to doing at work. Absolutely. But it's something that we kind of fervently believe is a learned skill. And once you get used to it and it becomes a norm for the team to go, oh, kind of, I don't think we're okay. What do you need. And that becomes a normal thing to do.

Louise Van Haarst [00:42:35]:
It becomes easier and easier and easier for that to be a shared language about how we do things around here.

Alice Driscoll [00:42:41]:
And we might even be more so specific as to say to someone. You've probably noticed that I'm. I'm trying to get things back on track. I don't know if I'm reading this right, but it seems like either you're not ready for that or that's not something that you're interested in. It would be really helpful for me to know straight up where you're at, just so that I know, you know, whether. Do I keep going or do I. Do I. You know what?

Carla Miller [00:43:10]:
What?

Alice Driscoll [00:43:10]:
Yeah, so what do you need?

Louise Van Haarst [00:43:12]:
Need?

Alice Driscoll [00:43:12]:
But to really just articulate what is actually going on and what you're experiencing. And then, you know, they could say, yeah, do you know what? I'm not ready? Or I just do not. I'm not interested. And then you can decide what you do from there.

Louise Van Haarst [00:43:25]:
And most of the time they go, oh, yeah, I'm cool. I just forgot to reply to your email. Like, it's. It's like, oh, yeah, sure, I've accepted it, but we've misinterpreted it because we're so. It's. Yeah, just being really aware of. Just kind of. Of being curious about what's happening for both parties.

Alice Driscoll [00:43:42]:
I think also when you call out and make that observation, even if they were playing the game of, I know you're trying, and right now what I need is for you to keep trying and for me to not respond. You know, like, I kind of need you to see you working at this. And there's a bit of me going, yeah, I just sort of need to enjoy this for a moment. When you call. Call it out without articulating it that way, sometimes that's enough for that person to be like, okay, cool, you know, yes, I did need some time. I wasn't ready, but I'm sure we'll get there. And then their behavior changes quite quickly because as soon as it's noticed and it's named, it's quite difficult to kind of maintain these games.

Carla Miller [00:44:22]:
Those are such useful tips for dealing with the awkwardness, because I think the awkwardness is a big part of that fear, isn't it? I often coach people and. And they're talking about this ongoing issue with someone, and I'm like, okay, so.

Carla Miller [00:44:34]:
What have you communicated so far?

Carla Miller [00:44:36]:
Oh, nothing. Yes, they can articulate it to me perfectly, but they haven't even started to articulate it to that person and they are totally mind reading, potentially very inaccurately what's going on for the other person, like you said earlier, Louise, fantastic. So I think that's a lovely example to end the interview on. What's one thing that you would like people to take away from listening to this podcast today?

Louise Van Haarst [00:45:06]:
I think to go back to where we started, that you do want conflict at work, but you want the right kind. And while it might seem a difficult thing to get good at, it actually isn't. You've probably got all the skills you need already. You just need a few tools, techniques, forms of words, mindsets to kind of just get you to where you need to be.

Carla Miller [00:45:34]:
That's very reassuring. Thanks, Louise. Now the book comes out on the 16th of September, so will have just.

Carla Miller [00:45:41]:
Come out when this episode lands. Where else should we direct people to?

Carla Miller [00:45:47]:
What's your website address, for example?

Alice Driscoll [00:45:49]:
Yeah, so. So there's the book which is obviously available at all good bookshops. And then if you head to the powerhouse.com we've also got a resources page there with some downloadable read along workbooks both for individuals and for teams. And we've also got a diagnostics page where you can complete the what's my default conflict style diagnostic for individuals. We've also got a smart conflict team diagnostic. So it's a, it's a diagnostic that will take you and the team through the five Rs and you'll get a, a score for each of the of the Rs. So that, that's great for teams to kind of get a sense of where are we really doing well against the 5R's as a team and where's the opportunity to kind of level up. So both those are free and available.

Carla Miller [00:46:40]:
At thepowerhouse.com company some fantastic resources there.

Carla Miller [00:46:44]:
Well, thank you. Thank you firstly for writing the book because you're obviously doing this work with clients and you could have kept it to yourself but you put it out there and I hope that comes back to you many fold in terms of growing your business but also just knowing.

Carla Miller [00:46:59]:
That you're having that impact on the people that are reading the book.

Carla Miller [00:47:03]:
I enjoyed it and I've already thought of a list of clients that I'm.

Carla Miller [00:47:06]:
Going to be sending some copies.

Carla Miller [00:47:08]:
These two when they arrive. I suspect it'll be one that gets this episode will also be one that.

Carla Miller [00:47:14]:
I cross reference on future episodes as well because you've shared some really practical things.

Carla Miller [00:47:18]:
So thanks for sharing on this podcast.

Carla Miller [00:47:20]:
As well and good luck with the book launch.

Louise Van Haarst [00:47:23]:
Thank you so much. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.