Carla Miller 00:00
Do you sometimes find yourself overwhelmed and really struggling to focus on the things that matter? If you do, then this is the episode for you.

Carla Miller 00:12
Welcome to the influence and impact podcast for female leaders. My name is Carla Miller. And I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self doubt, become brilliant influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. And I want to become the leadership BFF, you didn't know you were missing until now.

Carla Miller 00:41
It's officially autumn. And I'm sending a massive high five to all the other parents who made it through a summer of juggling work and school summer holidays. And now back into the midst of things in autumn. It feels like a really busy time. Certainly in our business, lots of things were put on pause over the summer, everyone wants to start their new programmes in autumn, we've got an influence and impact cohorts coming up. Next week we're starting. And we've got another Be Bolder cohort coming up in October. So if you're looking to work with me in 2023, and you haven't gotten around to it yet, do check out my website where you can find details of both of those programmes. And I don't know about you, but the house felt very busy over the summer holidays and I was looking forward to a little bit of peace and quiet and time to focus. But now it feels a little bit empty without my little person around all of the time. He has just started year one and is enjoying being back at school and and the new things he's learning which is great. So it seems like a really timely moment for this fresh new episode. So over the summer, you've been listening to some of my favourite old episodes that I feel are kind of timeless classics. Things like having more gravity tasks, dealing with perfectionism giving feedback, upwards, all sorts of things that we cover within my courses.

Carla Miller 02:25
But what we're focusing on today is not something we cover within my courses. It's basically how you deal with overwhelm, and how you can train yourself to focus when you need to. And I know this is an issue for people a because it comes up a lot. When I start a session I often say How are you feeling today? What's one word and there's a lot of overwhelm busy, stressed, tired, exhausted. But also I know from looking at our most popular episodes in the past that some of them on overthinking and worry, for example, have been some of the most listened to episodes. So I think you're gonna really enjoy this.

Carla Miller 03:05
My guest today is Julia wolfenden. So Julia is the director and founder of on the app consulting. She's an executive coach and she's an author. She creates innovative workforce programmes that transform conversations at work, helping people to play to their strengths and fulfil their true potential. She's trained over 1000 leaders and coach CEOs, directors and senior managers across all sectors. And her employee engagement and coaching programme has attracted to international training awards. And she has written a book called Five Ways to focus, which provides insightful ways to help you deal with overwhelm, gain clarity, and perspective.

Carla Miller 03:46
I had a great chat with Julia, she introduced me to some really interesting new concepts, particularly ways to notice when you're heading towards overwhelm, but sometimes I just find myself there. And I wonder how did I get here. And actually, there are some great warning signs along the way. And then she shares five really clear approaches that you can take to get more focused, to get your brain feeling clearer, to help you prioritise to help you work out where to best spend your limited time and attention. And personally, I think women have a much higher mental load than men a lot of the time particularly if we have some kind of caring responsibility. We are juggling an awful lot we say yes to an awful lot we like to please people we put other people's needs first and it can be really really hard to focus when all of that is going on. So you're gonna find a super helpful is going to help you get more done and hopefully just enjoy everyday life a bit better as well. So I will roll this episode for you do Feel free to connect with Julia on LinkedIn afterwards if you found this helpful. And, as always, drop me a line. If you find podcast episodes helpful, I love hearing back from listeners about the difference that the podcasts are making to their working lives.

Carla Miller 05:25
Hi, Julia, welcome to the podcast.

Julia Wolfendale 05:27
Hi, Carla. It's great to be with you today.

Carla Miller 05:31
So really excited to talk about your book and about overwhelm, which I know is something I struggle with, and something a lot of others struggle with. But let's start by hearing a little bit about you. What's your background? And how did you come to write your book,

Julia Wolfendale 05:47
my background, so I did a Business Studies degree. And my first job was at Adidas, UK. So joining a global sports front was a really exciting thing for me at that young age. And then I went on to be marketing director Helly Hansen. So as far as at quite an early age, I had exposure to the corporate world and what it was like to work with air professionals, and both male and female leaders and have some really inspiring role models, and also some ways of learning things the hard way. And trying to figure things out when footsteps with him wasn't immediately clear to me. And then it went on to different roles at Manchester City Council. So working in the public sector, I have some kind of sense of social justice and wanting to help people so they can be at their best and great have great opportunities in their lives. So and then that led me to my coaching qualification, which I did, and then set up my own consultancy on the consulting because ultimately, I'm really interested in how people think and how people behave, and the results they can get when they are at their best. So I feel that the things I've learned along the way have kind of all brought me to this point where I'm training leaders in how to be at their best and get the best out of their people. And also writing books about helping people focus and get things on the

Carla Miller 07:07
I love it. And I really enjoyed I really enjoyed reading the book and recognising that you were a coach, and you're all about people putting things into action. So there was really fantastic coaching questions in there, which I know get people thinking and then actually committing to take action as well. So very, very practical work. I love practical books. So what was it that prompted you to write five ways to focus?

Julia Wolfendale 07:31
Well, I think as a self confessed overthinker. And I really did reflect on the kind of books that had helped me get where I am, and the kind of book I didn't want to write and the kind of book I would still like to read, as well as thinking about what is it my clients come to me for, and really noticed it just how busy people are these days, and the fact that so many women particularly are juggling, juggling so many things, they might be juggling a career and juggling a home life, they might have children. And they might also be caring for older adults, people are living longer. So women are often really can sometimes feel compromised in how they can be at their best at work or at home, and still fulfil, you know, the goals that they have in so many different aspects of their life, and still be the kind of person they want to be serving others, etc. So very conscious of people's level of overwhelm, especially with social media as well. And this expectation that you might be at your best all the time, no one is. So I wanted to help people see where they are at their best, where they've probably not paid attention to that, and help them value themselves. And also think about where they can put new attention to the things that really do matter to them. So they can feel more fulfilled.

Carla Miller 08:57
Fantastic. And how have you structured the book? What's the approach you've taken throughout the book? And that was an important thing.

Julia Wolfendale 09:05
Actually, I thought I'm not going to make this really long book because this is for people who are already struggling to get through their their current reading pile or their current mountain of emails, what are the demands? So I thought I'm going to make this quite a short book. So I'm going to make it I'm going to include some big questions. So I divided into 13 chapters, focusing on different areas that we could ask five key introduced five key things of focus on so how to get things on, yup, how to take action, and how to be at your best. But in each chapter, I've structured it around an inch, an introduction, some explanations and some context and a big question. So what is it that you're looking for, for example, and then some insight questions that will help people reflect so you can use it Like a work, and really think things through for yourself. And I really do challenge people to, to move to action based on what their new perspective is on answering those questions.

Carla Miller 10:12
Brilliant. And one of the key things that came out for me was this idea of change points and boiling points, because those are phrases I've not really heard before. But I thought was a really interesting way to look at that. So can you tell us a little bit

Julia Wolfendale 10:25
more about this? ELS did that just kidding to me when I was writing the book, because I think there's so there's things that we're reacting to all the time. And change points will be more when a something is happening in your situation or context. So maybe it reached a milestone birthday. So that's a natural change. Yeah. Or maybe your family dynamic has changed. So maybe those children have left home and gone to university or your youngest child that your child has started nursery and you found you've got timeout, or you or or maybe you've been through divorce, and actually you need to really, really have a rethink about your finances or your home situation and change. So change points is that when the change is kind of coming to you, you know, to mean you're experiencing a change around you, it's coming to you. Whereas boiling points are when with things have been happening that could have been brewing can we've not paid attention to them? Or they're so it might have that feeling of unease and unsettled feeling unsettled at work and knowing that perhaps I do need to do something about this, maybe this is a time to go for promotion, maybe this is a time to look for a different role. Maybe this if you sit around and the next restructure leaves you out? What's that going to be like? So the boiling point is knowing that something is it's mean that you could do something about that you haven't been paying attention to it.

Carla Miller 11:54
But that really resonates with me. And I think this idea that boiling, it takes a while for you come in, for example, doesn't it and we rarely wake up one day from goat being completely happy than previous data, I am ready to make change. Like all of those big changes and decisions. They rumble along for quite a long time, don't they? Until they reach the point where you're like, Okay, I actually don't want this to continue. anymore that way. Yeah. Now might you recognise because I guess ideally, you want to start taking action before you're actually at boiling point, don't you? So how might you recognise that you're heading towards the boiling point? Yeah.

Julia Wolfendale 12:30
So I deal with that in the book, you know, in asking those insightful questions and, and just thinking about that, actually, examples through my coaching practice writing client, Master week, what do you know to be true now, that will be even more true in six months time? And it's that knowing yourself, and what are you ignoring, not paying attention to what is important to you that actually is going if you don't take action, or if you don't give it some attention? It's kind of kind of bite you and a bite your lip balm in six months, and you kind of knew that was gonna happen. So it is that call to action? It's like, what do you really know to be true now? And if you don't do anything about that, what's going to happen in six months? Yeah,

Carla Miller 13:19
I think that taking that long term view is so yeah, I remember way before I trained as a coach, I discovered Tony Robbins books. I mean, now I'm not totally sure on some of his attitudes towards women in particular. But some of the things he was saying just completely rocked my world. And I remember one of them. While it was a question along the same lines of, if this is still the same in a year's time, what year would that look like? And it slips into ego, okay, well, it'll get better on its own, it will improve and you just sit in it for a long time, don't you? And that question that you've asked really helps crystallise the fact that if you don't make the change, probably nothing is going to change. That's right.

Julia Wolfendale 14:01
And that idea is throughout the book, really, which is if you were to choose five, well, the book kind of prompts you in five ways to focus five things to focus on in each chapter, which make you recognise what is important. And then those calls to action around Okay, now, you know, those things are important. Specifically, what could you do? And if you did and what, what, what might happen or what might not happen? And so it's that real sense of enabling ownership. You know, when people said, I'm a cheerleader for people I really am because I believe everybody has this results on this inside and then one of the key phrases I use is, you know, to did the gold, you've got to believe it's there. So, it is there. It's within everybody. Everybody asked them some talents and abilities. But often our focus is going towards supporting other people's priorities. The people and objectives, and maybe they're better at getting support for theirs. And we are at noticing what it is that matters worst and, and if life clusters vine was all missed opportunity, then we might feel pretty sore about that. And we might not. But this is the this is the question rarely.

Carla Miller 15:20
And I think it happens a lot, doesn't it at various change points, including that one, you talked about where children are leaving home, you've put them first for so long. And they've literally flown the nest, not that they don't still need you. I've been home many, many, many times since officially a pizza certainly.

Julia Wolfendale 15:39
A different way. Exactly.

Carla Miller 15:40
But that idea that particularly like as a parent, your life is shaped around your children. And then that changes shape. Completely. Ban. I know, certainly that hit my mum quite hard at that point, and led to lots of questioning. So I can totally see how the book is really relevant at those change points in particular. So yes, about overwhelm. What do we mean by overwhelm? When you talk about it? What do you have in mind? Well,

Julia Wolfendale 16:13
I say it's like, it's like having a head full of bees, and you can't see the woods for the trees. You know, there's that many thoughts buzzing about? And we probably don't know which thoughts are important. And that's again, a question that I asked people in coaching, which of these things are quality talks. And often, people who are overwhelmed don't sleep well. So it has a really negative effect in their ability to, to show up well, in their different roles, and their different responsibilities. It all sort of has any you know that that health effect as well and not sleeping well actually known as negative effects on the body, not just your mental health. So overwhelmed can be just the idea or distraction, and not knowing what to pay attention to knowing there is a lot going on. And also that sense of needing to keep up. And sometimes it's the comparison factor needing to keep up with everybody else. Who else who seems to be just nailing it. They're not, they're just really good at curating that message.

Carla Miller 17:25
Social media was just the worst for that, isn't it? I feel fine. Just hang out on Instagram, or LinkedIn. I'm a failure at lines. Oh,

Julia Wolfendale 17:33
yeah. I'm very, very minimal. With my social media engagement. I'm much more interested in in the now when in the real human interaction and experiences that are valuable to me. So but I think it's so typical for people that overwhelm does come from the those algorithms that are at work telling us what to pay attention to, you know, they're they're telling us what we're interested in. And even if you've had a scant glanced at something that will try to get your attention to that again, because your it will have recognised how your your eyeballs responded. So in a way, we lose a sense of what was it again, that I was really interested in. That's why you find yourself go down a rabbit hole when you're on social media, because it's trying to tell you all the time what to be interested in. And we'd lose that sense of self. That actually what's important to me.

Carla Miller 18:27
Yeah, we do your attention is so important, isn't it? And we just lose it when we go. And we're to like a time abyss. I can. Oh, and such feedback. I did that this morning. And then it's like, half an hour is gone. I mean, such a time. Yeah, I could have been doing that I could have been meditating. I say I don't. I've got time to scroll social media for like half an hour in the morning and check my emails and stop it. Like when are you doing? For me overwhelm comes in, in two forms, mainly, before I really, really streamline my work, it would come by looking at my to do list. Yeah. And being just so much on there that I would go into a bit of a panic of, like, I don't even know where to start, I can't start anywhere because my head is just full of the unknown at the other end. For me, the place I get overwhelmed now is when I try and make plans for like 510 years time and look at finances in the business. And then again, it's all these different agendas floating around of all the things you should try and do. Yeah, that feels overwhelming. And then I have to kind of take a real step back and come back to what's important. Yeah, me and your book helps people to do that, doesn't it? It does to

Julia Wolfendale 19:42
the principle in that that chapter three, and you know, is is around five things, the five things that you could focus on to reduce that level of well being the well, which is called Finding focus when you need it most. So just like this grind. And those five things are dealing with distraction, delegation, prioritisation, balkanization, and automation. So the idea of distraction is what we've talked about, you know, all those reasons why we might be distracted. And, and, you know, our sins, as our sensitive, busy is really fulfilling on one level to us. And we use it to the turn. So likely, if you just how are you is doing are busy, without really thinking, what is the impact of that busyness? So I talked about beware of busy, because it's something that we can be in the state of without recognising the negative impact by having a very earnestly it might be something we really pride ourselves on, and have a lot of self worth connected to the idea of being busy. So the idea of not being busy, might then just the muscles feel like not being important. And that's where we've tried to tip the balance away from what is important. And how do we spend our time and attention on those things, too busy being the only thing that makes was importance.

Julia Wolfendale 21:13
I really like that I think I you spend a lot of time being busy and say yes to lots of things. And also just like, lots of I find lots of things interesting that I would have been rusty of five different charities at the moment. And I don't have time to be a trustee of any charity, and run my business and solo parent, my child and excetera. And it's really, really, really hard to say do not follow those we even start having the exploratory conversations before. I'm like, no, like, focus on what's important. But we many of us are interested in so many different things as well, like that variety, as mattering. So the underlying principle behind that and the questions tease out some of that, but it might be that say yes, less, it's a really proactive thing to do for yourself. And if we like to people, please that that might feel difficult. But think who you will be pleasing as a result, like you say, more able to please your family on a more able to treat yourself and when you please yourself, actually, you show up so much better for all those other things that you are wholeheartedly committed to not just like touch interested, and I share your sentiments completely. Because I in my own natural overenthusiastic could easily be involved in many, many more things. But I have to focus once you've written a book called Five Ways to focus you just have to.

Julia Wolfendale 22:40
And so I think that's it, it's kind of holding yourself to a power and being okay with saying yes less, because valuing the impact that you can have the depth rather than the breadth, you know, so being a trustee in one or two charities, but really being able to commit to that in a really fabulous way, rather than spread so thin, and you think I need to be able to do more of this, but there isn't more time. I think the other things I picked up is that it's been kind of referenced in the book, which is the the to do list. And it's a great place to start a to do list. But I think that sense of prioritisation is really important. And I have a little question that I asked myself, and if not you that whole idea as well of delegation, you know, if it if, if you're not getting to it, or if you didn't, you're not going to get to it, who else you know who else could do it as well as you or nearly as well as you, which would be enough to move it to the next stage. So that delegation is an important part of being able to focus on the things that actually only you can do, and only you can do really well. And organisation Well, if, if there is not time in the diary to do it, if so every time I come up with a task, if it can't be allocated to a time in the diary, it isn't going to get done. And that's like the grim reality. But it is something we need to be really mindful of. So we can always keep adding to the to do list. But unless that to do lists actually get entered into the calendar as an action, or some sort of commitment and follow up, it won't happen. So sometimes we need to think about the what do we let go was? And then also what can we automate. There's so many apps out there if we choose to use and if we like that kind of way of doing things, or even just waste of time to end you know, the out of office. You had a great act of Office, which really personally you said you're busy, you're healthy, you're busy, you kind of get to your emails because you were having fun with your with your young son, and it's the school holidays quite dry. And they just think that being able to automate that I think people really think carefully about how do they reply to that or not, and come back to you In a week or so later on, we'll figure it out for themselves. So I do think well, those different automatic responses or apps that we can use to take some of the repeat work, and repeat tasks, and chunking things as well dude, things in one though, if you hate doing your admin, do it all in one go. And you know, on a day that you know, you've got time and energy, or do it in chunks, rather than a bit here a bit there, constantly add it to the left, don't ever commit to the time slot where it can happen.

Carla Miller 25:35
And it sounds like you use some kind of system with your diary to allocate your tasks how? Well, Robin lysing things.

Julia Wolfendale 25:46
Yeah, so it's multicoloured coaching session, a training session, it's in one colour. And everything that is in another colour will be things that I know I need to do. So tasks, so I'll slot those in between coaching sessions, for example. And anything that I know is a deadline, I do my VAT return that's in there that was in another clock that was read, the things don't get missed that have to be done by certain dates, and my CPD that's in another colour. So I can see a difference. Have I got the balance, right? All the stuff that's in green is home stuff that's in the same kind of one calendar, everything's colour coded. And I can see the balance between how much flexibility Have I got? Because the things that are in my my work pillar, and are not movable? They're there. So I can see what's the space in between. So I can then think about how do I use my time the rest of that day. And I also, recruitment and self is three days a week as a recurring appointment. ideal day. That's in that. And that might mean that I'll start the day with some yoga, or I'll go to Tai Chi at lunchtime. And that isn't isn't requirement. So I will be mindful all that day that I have to do something from my ideal day list and make sure even if it's a busy day, there are still some of those things that restore and rejuvenate and keep me going that I'm committing to doing.

Carla Miller 27:12
That's a really nice idea to do that. And in the working day as well. I've done mine slightly differently in that I started 10 So that I can go for a run. First, I've got a chilled out appointment at 10. If I'm running a workshop at 10, you got to prep but also my face is still bright red. My job was start off your night. So by the time you've run the stretch as a shout. The bit tight. Yes, yeah, I've tried to do that. And also, I recognised I just needed a bit of downtime. I call it my get done day. So I basically have to teach Monday to Wednesday, normally not in school holidays. Thursday is my get shit done. Date. So that's where I can just get my head down and do stuff. Often the podcast is recorded last minute on a Thursday.

Julia Wolfendale 27:58
Last time I had this week, this is Monday.

Carla Miller 28:01
So I have a way with we're recording to autumn in the summer holiday ahead and and then I take Friday's technically off, I will quite often work if it's not a sunny day. But that's by my choice, doing things It feels so rather than try and get a bit of ideal day in every day. I've just tried to make half the week feel much more spacious. Yeah. And I feel more in control of it. We all have our different preferences, don't we but I think the key thing is you can use your calendar to create freedom for yourself.

Julia Wolfendale 28:34
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so it's that you use your calendar for that. So I think the more that you put into your calendar, that are the things that you are there, again, real intention and commitment to yourself. You know, often I think we hear about people whose calendar is open to everybody. And everybody's always putting stuff in there. So I think well, there's less chance of them putting stuff in there. If you've already safeguarded time, like you say safeguard you till 10 In the morning up until 10 o'clock, or you know safeguard from three o'clock, anything that you can do to those I guess boundaries really and what you're available for. And when the idea of an open hands, that's me fills me with dread. But on the times when it hasn't been opened, I've just made sure that I've got my things in there first. Otherwise, when do we get to do those things that we now need to make? We need to make them happen. And there will always be things other people will demand offers. And it'll just lead to frustration if we haven't been able to prioritise some advanced as soon as

Carla Miller 29:38
yes and I love say yes less. I can already see that. I'm going to pull that out as a social media quote, When it rains, we're going to be able to remember that. Yeah, find it. Hard to say no. So lots of people listening will be in busy roles in the corporate or public or nonprofit sector and that a lot of they're overwhelmed, they might think is happening from outside of them. Like there's lots of work coming up them. Yeah. What advice could you give them?

Julia Wolfendale 30:09
I think, give yourself some space to think about how. So your first response might be to please and which is the yes path? So not for it not to be an immediate? Yes, I'll do that. Moreover, yes, I'm interested. Yes, that sounds good. Yes, I think I'd like to be involved, I'd need to know more. And think about what is question that follows. So as soon as we just as soon as we say yes, and we, and there's an inclination for that other person to then think, great, it's 100 over. But if we ask more questions to fully understand, what's the scope of that? How, how much time would I need to give to that, if I was to hate that arm, means the other person will need to do some thinking about what are they really asking you to do. And you can still do your decision making around whether or not you would do that. I can do I can do, I can remember saying and doing that myself. In my last job, I was asked to do something, which was clearly something nobody wanted to do. And it was actually it's well, quite at odds, the way they wanted it to do was quite honest with my family. And I actually had to be coached on how I was going to say no. Which is, is great, because I'm great at coaching other people on that now, too. You know, we learned we do what we've got to experience for ourselves. And but I can remember, my instinct wants to say yes, even though in my heart, I knew it was the wrong thing for me to be involved in. And that is a wrong way of doing things. So I did actually go back and say, Actually, I don't think that I sort of am the right person for that. And given we've got to do this, this and this, I probably wouldn't be able to help you as much as you'd like. And that never been in my realm of thinking until I'd had some coaching on that I would have been the trihard person and the please people Firstly, we'll take it on any room figure out. So I think that's it, I think, say yes, less, but say, if your instinct is to say yes, if it's always to say yes, think about how, and ask more about what would be involved and ask for the time to consider when you've considered debt against only with the priorities.

Carla Miller 32:30
Yeah. And so just going back to the phrases you use them, could you repeat some of those? So you said yes, I'm interested or okay. So what was the phrase after that, that? Look at just hear yes, I'm interested and go? Oh, absolutely.

Julia Wolfendale 32:45
Yes, I'm interested. Could you outline for me how much time that might require? Or how much commitment would you need from me for that? Or? Yes, I'm interested and need to consider against my other priorities. Could you explain it in a bit more detail for me? Or? Or even? Yes, that sounds good. Which doesn't include you. It's just an agreement. That sounds a great idea. So that's, that's a little bit more of a step removed. So it's kind of keeping the door open. But you've not, you've not put your name down.

Carla Miller 33:24
And just make sure they understand that, I guess, because I think people if they're used to saying yes to everything, might just read that as a

Julia Wolfendale 33:31
absolute. Yeah. And the boundaries again, and yeah, yeah.

Carla Miller 33:37
And I liked the fact that you went back because I think what happens a lot I know from co chair, I know, from my own experience, you say yes to something. And immediately after you've said it easy. I say yes. Now I've got to actually go and do it. But you think that you're stuck with it from there, but you have been renegotiate, just like absolutely, yeah, absolutely. You can renegotiate it. And even to the point of saying,

Julia Wolfendale 34:05
you know, Thanks for considering me, I can see what I could bring to it. When I've considered it, though. There is quite a lot required in the first phase, and that's, that's when I'm really busy. However, in the second phase, that's when I'll have a bit more time. And we look at that instead, you know, really do some thinking around what the job contribution be. And why is it important that you have any contribution whatsoever? You know, and is it just there, please people? And again, and again, back to that, if not you who if you were to say no, this is someone else, that's actually it could be great development opportunity for them. And you might stand in the way of that falls in.

Carla Miller 34:50
Delegation is such a fantastic way of developing people and most people you're in it. Yeah. doing to someone else. And it's like, well, no, it can be a fantastic opportunity to develop.

Julia Wolfendale 35:01
I think I'll say that is so true, sorry, touch. Let me respond to saying the editor in my book, she's a fabulous copywriter now and has gotten set up and gone freelance. And we work together. And when we were both at Manchester City Council, and once I asked her to read over a blog I'd written and what she brought, that was just fantastic. And it made me realise what her editing skills were and her, you know, her way of thinking about restructuring things. And I just thought, Wow, that's great. And that was all because I just kind of delegated asked for her input. And, yeah, it's a great way of developing people. It's also a great way of recognising what other people have got to offer without always just thinking it has to be.

Carla Miller 35:45
Definitely, I think, what I was gonna share the story of someone I was coaching recently, and they had people coming to them for work with work that wasn't actually in their remit. And previously, they've been saying yes to it. So coached her on how to say yes, left often say, no. But what was really interesting is what I do, and I see so many women doing, if someone comes to us with a problem, they try and hand the problem or the task to us, we can't do it. And instead of just handing it back to them, we take it and go our friend, someone else. So you need to find this person and this person. And it's like, we've literally just taken the responsibility from them. So even though we're not doing the task, we somehow make it our responsibility to solve this problem, provide the information to point them in the right direction. You see that happening. And I do see that and your words really resonate with me because when I'm doing I'm training people who work in in all in organisations around how to have different conversations with their people, which is why I'm using a coaching approach. They'll say people come to me with problems. So when I say to them don't coach on a problem, hatred on an outcome. So they'll come to them with a problem. And I'll say to them, ask them what they want to be better or different. Rather than you going through your mind palace thinking, What

Julia Wolfendale 37:03
can I offer by way of a solution? Or how long? Oh, shall I take this on? Full them, hold it and find the ones to solve it for them? Might you've just said, so think that's it? You can say that with such empathy and consideration and genuine interest to the other person by saying, I hear you, I can see why that's the problem for you. And what would you like to be better? What would you like to change? What would you like to be different? And you just expanding that conversation? And without, without assuming the role as solution finder, fitzer problem solver, which always comes from a place of kindness. But have you got capacity?

Carla Miller 37:44
Yes, definitely. And I used to talk about in terms of leaders, I don't really talk about it so much anymore. But how as manager as a leader is quite often we find ourselves spoon feeding the people that we work with, like they'll come with a question. And because we know the answer, we think that's just quicker to give them the actually what we're teaching them is it's much quicker and easier to get colour to do it than it is to do it myself. And it's like spoon feeding or baby like, there's definitely a point where you're like, Well, this is definitely less messy. And I could just keep doing it. You know, they'd still be feeding Avianna

Julia Wolfendale 38:18
missiny. Fit? Yeah, excellent.

Carla Miller 38:23
I really don't like Max. But it's, it's the same thing. So I always say to them, like when someone comes to you that is used to spin foods England, the first question to ask them is, well, what are your thoughts on this? or what have you thought? or what have you tried? Or inexpensive enough? Then they will ask themselves that question before they even get to you and answer it for themselves and start saving you time. But at some point, you've got to break the spoon feeding habit, haven't you or the Alps. And

Julia Wolfendale 38:54
that's right, that dependency model doesn't serve either party particularly well. It should be a very adult adult arrangement at work. And I think sometimes it's like being true to ourselves and recognising that it might be meeting a need in us to be helpful. But what crusty we got to be that helpful with everybody that comes with their stuff? And it does it mean that it's impacting the stuff that you had prioritised for yourself that now is taken second belling? And what does that do to your sense of worth? What does that do to your level of overwhelm? What does that do to the the chances that you have to progress and perform in the things that that matter to you? So yeah, I would say it comes from a good place but absolutely like you say it's that just being able to make that switch between dependency and that helpful nurse and make sure it's, it's in the right balance with the right people at the right time.

Carla Miller 39:53
And that's such a good point about what does it do for your your promoter ability and your moon? Cheers. We had to Jody Flynn who's got her own podcast, women taking the lead on the show ages ago, and one of the things she said is actually being indispensable at your level and solving all the problems makes you less promotable, you look quotable, because they can't imagine that function without you. Without, I think they are completely dependent on you, and you can't get a successor. And I think what's important to recognise is, Pete, someone might be listening to this and thinking, well, people are just used to me doing that now, but you can change Cotonou. And that's what the book is really great for helping you think about why are you doing things in that way, and to think differently and see different potential futures?

Julia Wolfendale 40:45
Yeah, and that said, because we can all get into mental models and thinking habits. And sometimes it's just having that an O. And it might be a point of resentment or feeling undervalued or CLO and supported. When you get to that point where you feel another minute, but haven't been taken for a ride yet, well, one might have been absorbed emotion. And the if the tendency is to externally blame, and say I'm not being given opportunities, or, you know, there's no chances for me or people see me like this. What the book does do is really help you bring it back to you like that big goal to them, what is it this inside you that you've not been showing? Because you've been doing this instead, or you've been on the playing these other remnants of yourself? So yeah, the questions are designed to tap back in to, again, what's important to you? How can you really shine through and show yourself at your best, because otherwise, we might have a tendency to blame. The situation's blamed context, blame everybody else. But blaming doesn't change the game, really. And it's been able to look within yourself and see what have I got that I can draw on and happen and use that differently. And I do think you're right that people perhaps a hold back from doing some of that, because they think our people aren't external, expect that from me. But just what's more important that they show up consistently, or that they show up at their best. And think any organisation would value people showing up at their best. And I think most individuals would value more showing them showing up more at their best. But the consistency might be hard to break. And so people worried that I wouldn't be being authentic, it's like we would be you'd actually be being more authentic than you've ever been. Because she'd be showing all sides of your abilities and your potential and you'd be standing in new truths rather than standing in this version of yourself that has become very convenient to others, and is not the full picture. And that might feel scary to people listening, but is incredibly empowering and exciting. And that's where people's true potential rarely live.

Carla Miller 43:01
I think that's so true. I was coaching someone recently. And she was talking about various situations. And then she would tell me what she really thought and what she wanted to happen. But I was the only one who was hearing it. And hello, where am I the only person seeing this version of you that says exactly what she say to you not saying aggressively, but just saying exactly what you think and just helping her to recognise it's okay to show that to the rest of the world. That that side of you that is clear and knows you don't want to do that or knows this isn't the right way forward. And exactly what you said that is authentic. And sometimes it's just scary, like you said, that you said, or communicating in a way perhaps you'd haven't communicated before because you've couched everything really carefully to avoid being seen as anything other than super positive and super helpful, or brilliant that one thing I was going to ask you is get there's a lot in your book. What's one thing for the book that you wish you had known or worked out much earlier in your career?

Julia Wolfendale 44:10
And I think it's that thing that no, what matters to me. And I think perhaps there was definitely periods where I got sucked into this idea that it was going to be better in the end. But just to watch other people's put too much faith in other people's planning for me when I think I've always been a very sort of self motivated person. And I think I took her as a step back over a number of years where I and and believed this this RMS or that the restructure and then there'll be this opportunity for it's like that opportunity to navigate. And because this restructure took four years rather than one year, you And that was just working in the public sector. You know, things go very slowly, in some departments and some some public sector organisations. So I think I am, I put too much trust in other people's ability to kind of learn and move things at the pace that I want it to work out. And it made me realise that and it had served me well previously. And it served me well, since it made me realise and remember that when I want things to happen, I can make them. But when I wait for the people to make the things that they think I would find useful, happen, it leads to frustration, and resentment. So I kind of came back to myself and go, hang on, you always wanted this, when are you going to write that but it happened. And that's I thought, You know what, I knew I was always going to have my own brand. I knew I was going to be and I was doing my coach training and consulting. And I thought, now's the time, just to make this happen now, because I've said, this quote before, you know, what's this thing? You can't go a day without thinking about do that? And, yeah, that's really helped me going back to the go pay attention to what you can't go without thinking about, what's your way to make that.

Carla Miller 46:30
Fantastic. And if people want to find out more about you, obviously, they can buy the book in any major bookstore or online a bit. If they want to find out more about you. Where can they go?

Julia Wolfendale 46:43
Yes, so they can buy the book. And it's available. It's Kindle five ways to focus by Julie orphan down. It's on Amazon, it's Kindle or paperback. But you can also look on my website. So it's Judy, a wolf and out but the website is on the consulting.com. And tap me on there, I'd be happy to chat to people about what it is they might be looking for. Do not have one to one coaching, and run workshops as well for organisations and train managers. So yes, be happy for anyone wants to reach out.

Carla Miller 47:16
Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for sharing your insights with us and your time. Like I said, I think it's a super practical book is very much it covers lots of things. Like if you're looking at life coaching, and maybe you can't afford a coach or you want to start with some thinking on your own, it's such a great place to start to think about what's important to you. So recommend that and and do follow Julia on socials where she is on social determinants, look up her website and buy the book. Thanks, Julia, and enjoy the rest of your week.

Julia Wolfendale 47:49
Thank you so much be great to be with you. Thanks, Carla.

Carla Miller 48:00
That just before we finish up this episode, when I was interviewing Julia, I was really tempted to ask her to share with us on the episode, a visualisation that she has in the book, which I think is a really lovely visualisation, but I didn't want to put her on the spot on when we were recording. So I said that to her afterwards. And she had kindly provided a link to the visualisation. So it's a visualisation that can help you feel calm in the moment. It's lovely in short, it's very relaxing. And so in the show notes, you will find a link to that visualisation. And I hope you enjoy it

Carla Miller 48:51
if you enjoy this episode, please do go into your podcast player whichever one it is and hit follow or subscribe. That means that you'll get every episode delivered to your device and it also tells the podcast platforms that this is a podcast worth listening to. So head over now and hit follow or subscribe today.