Carla Miller 00:00
Somewhere between 30 and 50% of us have introverted tendencies.

Some of us might be introverts and not even really know it yet. I know from coaching hundreds and hundreds of people how challenging it can be to be an introvert in a world of work that celebrates and is set up for extroverted tendencies and extroverts, which is why I am delighted to bring you this really thoughtful conversation with Emma Taggart.

Welcome to the Influence and Impact Podcast for female leaders.

My name is Carla Miller, and I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self-doubt, become brilliant influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. And I want to become the leadership BFF that you didn't know you were missing until now.

Emma is a leadership and career coach for introverted leaders. She helps ambitious people with a quiet, reserved and unassuming style to feel confident in their capabilities and progress their careers without changing who they are.

Before training as a coach, Emma was policy director at a breast cancer charity, Chief of Staff to a prominent politician and ran an independent consultancy supporting not for profit organisations to campaign and influence effectively.

Emma and I have known each other for a few years now she was a guest on one of my previous online programmes. I've never had her on the podcast. So, I'm really pleased to be able to bring her to you. If you haven't got Emma on your radar and you are someone who is introverted, or you want to get better at making your workplace introvert friendly and managing and leading and motivating perhaps some of the more introverted people that work in your team, then this is the episode for you.

So, we explore all sorts of things including what is an introvert and Emma is light bulb moments when she realised that that was her.

We also talk about what qualities introverts bring to the workplace, and introverted qualities that are great for leadership qualities like listening, and not being the first person in the room to talk and how they make you a better leader, not a worse leader.

We rant for a little while about meetings, and how most of them are really poorly run and Emma shares some really practical simple ways that you can change the meetings that you run so that they work for everybody, not just the extroverts in the room.

Finally, we talk a little bit about how you can make more introvert friendly workplaces.

I hope you find this conversation interesting. I know that I certainly did really recommend that you follow Emma on LinkedIn and check out the scorecard that she tells us about at the end.

You will also find if you are a regular listener, you'll find some parallels between what we talk about on this podcast and what I talk about in Be Bolder for example. So we talk about getting your voice heard we talk about that confidence to speak up and having an opportunity to speak up.

So, if you've ever been in a meeting and not been able to get a word in edgeways well Emma's got some practical tips on that and we also share lots of that in Be Bolder as well, my confidence and assertiveness course, now we have just finished up one cohort of that. The next one is in October. So, if you're thinking, actually, I'd really love to be more confident at speaking up in meetings, whether you're an introvert or not then do head over to my website where you can book yourself on and find out more about the October cohort of Be Bolder.

Hope you enjoy this episode. If you do, please do subscribe, make sure that you're following the podcast so you get all the episodes and also give us a rating and review so that more people in the world can get access to what we share here on the podcast.

Okay, have a great week. Take care and enjoy this episode.

So. having spent a lot of time hanging out together on LinkedIn, it's great to be able to have a proper chat with my guest today Emma Taggart, welcome to the podcast.

Emma Taggart 04:58
Thank you, Carla. for inviting me to be here, I'm really excited about the possibility of being able to talk about this subject and get into it with you.

Carla Miller 05:07
And I know you're a loyal listener of the podcast as well, you kindly tell everyone about it. Thank you for that you know how this goes. Today we're talking about introversion, how it shows up in the workplace, how to lead as an introvert. Tell us a little bit about your background, and how you came to focus on this area as a coach.

Emma Taggart 05:30
Okay, so I spend my time now being a leadership and career coach for introverted leaders. What that basically means in my day to day world is that I help ambitious people with a very kind of quiet and unassuming reserved style, to make the progress that they want to make in their career without having to change who they are and pretend to be something they're not.

And I came to that because what absolutely drives me on a daily basis is the anger I feel when so much talent is wasted and so much potential is overlooked because in my view, so many workplaces are absolutely biased towards extraversion it favours extraversion more than introversion. And given that introverts make up anywhere between 30 and 50% of the population, to me, that seems like a massive amount of talent to waste and it just really gets me wound up. So you know, that is what I'm doing and why I'm doing it now but what brought me to it really was my own experience. So you know, I've always been a very reluctant leader, but my career is very much a career of leadership in a lot of ways. So, you know, when I was a student, I was elected to co-lead the student wing of the Labour Party.

When I kind of stopped being a student and decided to come out of that political world that I spent a little bit of time in, early on in my career, I went into the charity world, and I was kind of quickly sort of spotted and promoted, and I ended up as a charity director, but that was not something that came easily, for reasons we might get into later. So, I've had, I've had these leadership positions, like you now worked as chief of staff to David Lammy, when he was the higher education minister. So I've had these kinds of senior roles, but I never ever, ever felt like a leader in those roles. And so I know what it's like to be somebody who doesn't fit the mould doesn't fit that traditional idea of what an indoor is supposed to be and spends a lot of time kind of doubting themselves, questioning, am I really cut out for this? Am I supposed to be a leader? Am I kidding myself here? Yeah that's how I felt a lot of the time. But then I did you know, I found a way of embracing my introversion to stop hiding my light under a bushel and expecting my work to speak for itself, I kind of realised I had to put myself out there a bit more and, and do that.

But when I did that, you know, the senior levels of leadership opened up to me, really. So, what got me to into coaching in this was just that, that experience taught me that it can be really frustrating to be somebody who is more introverted, who has got the talent to leave, but perhaps isn't saying that or believing it as much as they could. And that that holds back people in their careers. So having had that experience, but just thought, you know what, I'd want to become the coach that I wish I'd had earlier in my career. And so you know, I trained as a coach, not really intending to do this actually are trained as a coach for other reasons. Once I was in that, and I was doing it in training, I thought, actually, this is what I'm gonna do on board and to be the coach that I wish I'd had when I was trying to work all this stuff at bots. And so, you know, that's what I do now. And I love it when the people I work with in a do transform in front of my eyes, really, you know, they either do get the big probation centre keep full, or yeah, maybe they don't want the probation but they just want to feel comfortable and confident in their own skin. And I absolutely love it when that happens.

That's that's kind of what he's going through what you will know is quite a tough time sometimes when you work for yourself.

Carla Miller 09:32
Absolutely, and I love your passion and like you say the anger at how it's so hard for some people to succeed because the home system is set up, not with them in mind. And as we've talked about all this parallels very much between women in the workplace and introversion in the workplace. Was there a light bulb moment for you when you first heard the word introvert.

Emma Taggart 10:02
There was two I think for me. So, what one thing for me that happened was, I remember exactly when, but at some point in my charity career I had what lots of people have open to them at times, which is to have a Myers Briggs MBTI assessment done. Now, I'd say I'm not a massive fan of Myers Briggs these days and that would be a whole other conversation about why I'm not going to sort of shout from the rooftops about the benefits of that kind of personality test.

But way back, when we are going back a bit here, there was a moment where I had that the assessment done, and I got very lucky to have a chance to sit down with a psychologist who could take me through what it meant. And I just remember that suddenly, everything made sense when I actually properly understood what introversion was, everything made sense. Because up until then, I'd heard the word I thought it meant that I was shy, you're the viewer and interviewing shy, that's what I thought. And I know that I've never been shy. Yeah, maybe when I was very small child, just finding my feet at school, shyness was a thing, but generally, I'm not a shy person. So, the introvert label didn't really resonate.

But when I really understood what it meant, there was that moment of thinking, Ah, this is the reason why some of the things that I struggle with at work are a thing. So that was definitely the first light bulb moment. And then there was another one quite some time later, when Susan Cain published her very well known now book quiet. And if anyone hasn't watched her TED talk or read that book, I absolutely recommend going to do that. But I, I read her book, and I had the pleasure of meeting Oh, and she launched it in London. And again, it was just that moment of this thought this is this is something that really makes sense to me. But at that time, it just felt really exciting that suddenly so many more people were going to understand. And I think that's absolutely happened in the seven or eight years since you published that book is talked about more, it's understood more, still a lot of misunderstandings. But that I think, was a lightbulb moment, not just for me, but for a lot of people.

Carla Miller 12:19
Brilliant. And so how do you define introversion?

Emma Taggart 12:22
Okay, the first thing I would say about that is that this definition, or this label of introvert, absolutely should never define somebody completely, right. Because we're all complex. We're all unique. Everyone's got a blend of all sorts of different personality and traits and characteristics, and all sorts of other things going on. And so to just fixate on that label of introvert, I don't think is very helpful.

Not just in terms of personality traits, but also other characteristics. You know, we know that intersectionality is really crucial in terms of how people experience the world and experience the workplace. So you know, no one is ever an introvert, they might be an introverted woman, and introverted man, you know, black woman, a disabled person, all of these different things that we've all got going on matter. And introversion is just one part of that mix. However, it is really useful, I think, for people to know, their preference to have half they've got a preference for introversion, or have they got a preference for extraversion. Because if you can understand where you are with that, and how it shows up at work, then it starts to help people make sense of the challenges they face. And any you know how they might navigate those at work. So you asked me the question was, what's the definition of introversion? And the one that lots of people I'm sure will be familiar with. And we've all heard, haven't we is this idea that it's about where you get your energy from? Pain. That's what we hear, we hear that, you know, it's about how you charge your battery.

Now, it absolutely feels like that. But it's not quite right to say that it's all about where you get your energy from. Because all of us get our energy from being with people to some extent, you know, we're humans, we need social connection. Everybody is energised by being around people. So this idea that that introverts get energy just from being alone isn't right. Okay. What it's actually about is, you know, the key difference between an extrovert and an introvert is how we respond to stimulation. So when I talk about stimulation, what I mean is, you know, being around people, that is absolutely one form of stimulation, but it's also about, you know, being out and about in the world taking part in activities, you know, just being out and having a load of stuff coming at you from the world. That's stimulation, right. And the key difference between an introvert and an extrovert is how we respond to that.

Now, I don't want to get into a science lesson. There's all sorts of theories and sort of research that suggests what might be going on neuro biologically. With this book, what people really need to know, essentially, is that extroverts need a lot of stimulation to be at their best. Whereas introverts need some but less. And so yeah, maybe I should pause there.

Carla Miller 15:36
No, I'd love to hear what you want to say next.

Emma Taggart 15:41
So though this year, if we know that introverts need less stimulation, then what happens if we get too much of it? Well, I think anyone listening to this who's got a preference for introversion, whether they know it or not, at this point, will be very familiar with the feeling that they get after say, a day of kind of back to back meetings, you know, typical day at work is absolutely full of stimulation, it's the meetings, it's the emails, it's the constant messages popping up, it's the person just giving you a quick call or popping by your desk, if you spend in the office, it's all of that stuff coming at you all day. And when we get too much of that we feel drained, we find that it becomes much harder to think clearly and to speak clearly. And we have this real sense that we need to withdraw, we need to either be on our own, or be just around people who don't need us to be on. And that we can just kind of take that time to reflect go inwards, to reflect on what's been happening and what we're thinking and just to generally come back into balance. Whereas an extrovert will buzz off of all of that stimulation, you know, kind of feel a lot better for having it.

I do want to say though, because let's recognise that this is not kind of an exact science here. This is I'm talking in generalities, to a point here, because yeah, of course, extroverts are going to need downtime as well, we've all got the capacity to feel exhausted at the end of the day back-to-back meetings, right. But the difference is that extroverts will be able to just deal with that for a bit longer. And if they're forced to kind of withdraw in the way that introverts love to do, they'll start to feel a bit more agitated bit more quickly and need to get back out there and be stimulated again. So there we go. There's hopefully a bit of an explanation about what the real difference is between an introvert and an extrovert.

Carla Miller 17:44
Excellent, really insightful and I'm guessing all of us, to some extent, have lost some of our tolerance for stimulation with lock downs and things like that. I know certainly, what I could cope with before. Now it's like, oh, no, that is a lot. I definitely don't want to go out and do three social things. One trip to London, or I can just about manage to maybe it's interesting, and so and people who are ambiverts, or and averted that. How you do it is that traits of each or is that sometimes you have moments of feeling more introverted, and sometimes it's a feeling more extroverted?

Emma Taggart 18:26
Well I don't quite, haven't quite come to a view about what I think about the term ambivert. To be honest with you, Carla, I understand that ambivert is somebody who feels like they're kind of right in between that introvert and extrovert, extreme, if you like that they've got some traits of both.

The reason I say I'm not quite sure how I feel about the term is because actually, as you know, introversion and extraversion exist on a spectrum, there is no such thing as a pure introvert or a pure extrovert.

So to an extent, everybody is ambivert. If we say that ambivert is about, you know, sometimes feeling one way sometimes feeling the other being able to flex in and out of behaviours that are perhaps more typically associated with extraversion or introversion. So, you know, technically, I guess someone can be slap bang in the middle of that spectrum who could be an ambivert. But to me, it's more about being able to flex at every point of that spectrum.

You know, as an introverted person, I can absolutely behave in ways that are more typically extroverted. Being an introvert doesn't stop me doing that. It just means that what I might have to put a bit more effort into then the skills will have something that doesn't come so naturally. Or it might be that when I've flicked into that extrovert mode, I need to then give myself time to recover from that stimulation and just to to bring myself back to myself really. So yeah, it's it's a lot of fun. A Paul will find themselves identifying much more with that idea of ambi version because it isn't a purist thing. So it's great that you brought that up on base that you did.

Carla Miller 20:12
think that's where I, that's where I think I sit, and if I did Myers Briggs, I think I've come out slightly on the introvert side. I have always found traditionally that, like, I need people, but I can't have constant people. If I was going on a group holiday with friends, for example, I need to sometimes be the person by the pool with a book when everyone gone out for the day. Yeah, it always be the person by the pool. Yeah, though. Right. So that sounds quite good.

Emma Taggart 20:41
So to me that, Yeah, I absolutely relate to that as well. I probably wouldn't choose to go to a group holiday, I'd go with a small year of age, just one person or two. But yeah, I think there's something there about nit recognising that, yes, you need the stimulation of people as we all do. But then there's the withdrawing and having that time on your own to kind of recover a bit from it. And everyone has to kind of figure out what that balance is for them, there is no hard and fast rule.

And that's one of the things that I really encourage my clients to do is to start figuring out, okay, well, what is the optimum amount of stimulation that you need? And how can you start to create your work day, so that it actually gives you that because actually, what most people are finding who have got an introverted preference is that the workplace is set up to mean that they're flexing out of introverted preference most of the time, which is too much stimulation, it's exhausting. And it ends up impacting on their work outside law, their work outside life and life outside work. Because I've got the energy to kind of engage with family or friends or go out and socialise, I've just given it all to work. So it's, it's finding that balance is really important for people.

Carla Miller 22:01
That makes sense. And then the other thing that has confused me and my question of memory, about where an extra hour like introverted or extroverted is that and I am in no way a reflective thinker. So anything you asked me a question, you will get my best answer right now. And I've got no interest in thinking about it further. And if you ask me borrow, I would just give you the same URL. It's because my brain has quickly gone through the options this is my best option, right go with it. Is that different to almost everybody that I coach, actually, and this comes up a lot in be bold, and we're going to talk about how meetings are a nightmare for reflective thinkers. But does does with being a reflective thinker mapped directly onto introverted tendencies?

Emma Taggart 22:46
Yeah, it does. Because again, the difference in thinking styles is very stark actually in and you have just described really well and extroverted thinking style, which is to know, know what you think straightaway be able to articulate it?

And I would guess, that you and others who have that sort of thinking style, enjoy sharing your ideas before even you've believed thought them through, who kind of get a lot out of bouncing things around with other people. Yeah, so whereas the more reflective thinker who has a preference for introversion, actually much prefers to kind of process per se, the piece of information or the question they'd been asked to take that away, and share it around in their own head for a while, you know, kind of just have a have a real think about it. And then and formulate their opinion, formulate the words that they want to say out loud, to share a point of view. Now, the way I've just described, it makes it almost sound like an introverted person need to go away and think for four days about something that's not the case, or obviously the big complex thing it might be.

But generally, when we're asked to give a view, you know, and we don't necessarily need loads of time to think but we need a space of some sort, to just process with go in words and then speak. And that basically comes down to the difference between speaking to think which is what extroverts like to do, and thinking to speak, which is what introverts prefer.

Carla Miller 24:23
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And I write so I talk to myself when I'm at home, because I'd like to verbalise things. But I do when I'm talking to other people, it does go through my head before it goes out to someone else. Like, it doesn't just go but and then I formulate it as it goes, it is my brain goes, What do I want to say here? Why do I want to say it, okay. But yeah, I've coached a lot of people with introverted tendencies. And I think what you're doing is just so empowering because a lot of them will come and say, I'm just, you know, my brain doesn't work as well as other people. I'm too slow. I'm not good at their side. And I really encourage you to see those introverted tendencies as an asset. Yeah. We're gonna go into meetings in a minute. But tell us a little bit more about what what do those introverted tendencies look like in the workplace so that we can identify them for ourselves, but also for our team members.

Emma Taggart 25:17
Okay, so the first thing is that, if you're an introverted person or someone in your team is, there will be a tendency and a preference to listen a lot more than you talk. So, yeah, the obvious place that show up is in a meeting, but it can be more general than that, you know, if you you if you are someone who would rather listen before you talk, pretty likely or introverted.

Second quality that shows up I think, is that 10, but that thoughtfulness, that willingness and desire to kind of reflect a lot and to go inwards? Quite often people will demonstrate that by being very quiet in a meeting, but then kind of having loads to say about it, when you next bump into them or get on a call, they'll sort of suddenly show that they've been really thinking about it, I've got loads to say. And quite often someone will say, Well, why don't you say all that in a meeting, it's like, well, because I hadn't thought it, then I had to go away and think about it. So real deep thinking, getting into that analysis, and problem solving is a bit of a clue. And one, that there's there's a quality as well of observation. So just because people are talking less, and sort of have that tendency to reflect quite often now or have very good observational skills. That might look like really noticing some of the unspoken dynamics in the office, or in the team, picking up on things that perhaps others have missed kind of seeing that nuance in relationships, and so on.

And then another quality we could pick up on is a tendency to want to shy away from the spotlight. And I shouldn't use that word shy, because as I've said, introversion isn't about shyness. But it's about kind of a reluctance to be in the spotlight and have people kind of focused on you. And you know, that might show up as feeling really uncomfortable when you have to make a presentation and that all eyes are all new. Even if you feel fine about actually making the presentation, the actual being in the view in the eyeline of people might be uncomfortable. But it may also show up as just that reluctance to want to be the one even if you are than team leader, it's that reluctance to want to be the one that you know, always goes and makes the presentation or I'll be the one to go to the board. And whatever it is, is tendency to want to push other people forward a bit more so that you're not the one in the spotlight.

Carla Miller 27:52
Interesting. I was coaching someone recently, actually and she had just stepped up to a certain level of leadership and, exactly like you were saying earlier, she didn't necessarily feel like a leader. And I said, what does a leader look like to you? And she said, someone just brings all the energy for the team. She was thinking of someone in particular and comparing herself and we helped her to think through exactly as you would What does actually leadership looked like her. So what you've explained some of those different qualities, what makes people who have introverted tendencies, great leaders, right?

Emma Taggart 28:29
Well I could probably talk for hours about that, and get a real bee in my bonnet about it buy let me try and pick out a few. But basically, I'll come back to this quality of listening, which I think is massively underrated leadership skill, but really important. And so you know, a few ways in which being a good listener can really help somebody to be an effective leader are for example, you know, if you've got a team, that if they're any good, and most teams aren't good, right, there's gonna be tonnes of ideas of enthusiasm and stuff in that team, right? So you want a leader who is open to hearing all those ideas, who doesn't have the idea that they have to have all the answers themselves? Because we feel that don't we have leaders sometimes that somehow we're supposed to have all the answers, but no, actually, the role of a good leader is to be open to and to facilitate other people to also have good ideas and to kind of draw those out of people. And we do that by listening, don't we? No, tell me your ideas. Tell me what you think we might do to solve this problem. And then being willing to do to kind of take that and run with with the best ideas. That's just one example of how listening shows up. I mean, another one that really strikes me is I don't know if you've heard Simon Sinek talk about the idea of leaders should speak last. Okay, I think what he said was that, you know, leaders who taught pitch up at a meeting and put their point of view first and then open it up slightly. So what does everyone else think, are actually kind of cutting off the possibility of getting all of that wisdom from the team. Because by being the leader by stating your opinion, first, you can run the risk of people then thinking they have to agree with you, or, you know, telling you what your what you want to hear, you know, it's what Sidak said was that, if we can get the discipline as a leader to speak last, then that is going to open up better ideas, more ideas, really psychologically safe environment for people to really contribute. And what he said was that so many leaders find that difficult to be the one that speaks last, whereas actually, what I see is that an introverted leader, finds it much more natural to be able to just say, Okay, I'm not gonna tell you what I think, because I might not even know yet because I want to hear what you have to say, you know, so it's there. As an example, I think of how listening and leadership go hand in hand. And that listening is actually really important, ultimate quality.

Carla Miller 31:19
I love that. And it fits with this idea of cognitive flexibility, the idea that great leaders can go into a meeting like that, and genuinely take on different perspectives, and in fact, haven't come to their own perspective. Start with, and it is a really, really hard skill to adapt if it doesn't come or to adopt if it doesn't come naturally. So it's great that reflective thinkers, introverts can do that more easily. And the other. I mean, I know you could give me a list of about two, well, what other things do you think are the top things that introverts bring to leadership?

Emma Taggart 31:54
Well, one of the things that I think it's really relevant to the workforce that we have now and as the workforce is developing, isn't it so we've already got a lot of millennials now starting to get to that stage where they're stepping up to leadership, or the kind of bubbling under and have the ambition to being getting into those top roles. And then we've got generation Z kind of coming through underneath there. And one thing that those generations have in common that perhaps is different to my generation, which is generation X, is that, you know, they expect to be heard, they expect to be listened to. And they expect to have managers and leaders who provide opportunities for development and stretch themselves and to show what they can do. And you know, we look at any of the surveys and of those generations, and how they fit about work, but it is very much about, you know, I've been the opportunities to share what you can do.

So again, I think there's quality that introverted leaders have of not wanting to be in the spotlight, not not not wanting power for its own sake, could be like, and, of course, that doesn't apply to all extroverts either. But that sense of not wanting to be in the spotlight can make it easier. I think that some introverted leaders to push others forward to develop the team, maybe to even be more comfortable with succession planning, to bring people along and share that spotlight rather than naturally feel comfortable in it. And therefore, you know, just be more comfortable taking those opportunities to be in the spotlight and not even consciously but just to just because it feels right, and some people in a way that for introverts that think twice before being the one to step into that spotlight.

Carla Miller 33:43
That makes sense. And then one thing you're like, we have a chat beforehand, and we both feel quite passionately that meetings needs to change. Why don't readings work for the 30 to 50% of people who do have introverted tendencies?

Emma Taggart 34:07
Oh, I mean, I really could talk for hours about meetings. I won't but the reason they don't work well, comes back to that difference in thinking styles between introverts and extroverts of what you were saying about reflective thinkers and so on.

You also said before extroverts speech think introverts prefer to process reflect and then say what they have to say. But actually, the vast majority of meetings are just run really badly. You know, they're poorly facilitated. It's a free for all where everyone's just expected to jump in and say their piece. Quite often there's no agenda in advance. So the introverts in the room are going to really struggle with that because for an introvert to be able to turn up on performers are meeting the need to know what is on the agenda, what is expected of them. So they can prepare, get ready to, you know, was prime their brain to be ready to speak up when they get into that room. And if they don't have that opportunity to prepare, they're not going to be able to speak because they're not going to have the processing time and the thinking time to formulate the words. So yeah, it's meetings are badly run by and large. And what that means is that natural talkers end up with disproportionate air tone. And that puts introverted people at a disadvantage. So we end up staying quiet, where perhaps we don't want to be quiet. And we're seen by others as having nothing to contribute, which is obviously not true. Because there's all sorts of rich thoughts going on in an introverts head. But if you can't have the space in that meeting to process and then articulate what you want to say, you're going to leave the room without saying anything, and then you're probably going to beat yourself up afterwards. So why didn't I say that? Or the answer that you wanted to give it to the come to you five minutes after the meeting comes to an end? And, and yeah, that that's one of the things that most gets me riled up because everybody loses, when half the ideas in the room never make it out of people's heads. But that's the reality of what's going on in the meetings that we all spend far too much of our life in.

Carla Miller 36:32
So, I'm going to ask you two questions here. So just to forewarn you, the first question is going to be if we could wave a magic wand and totally redesign meetings, so that they work, or introverts as well, how would we do that? And then the second question is bringing it a bit closer to reality and going well, we might not be able to totally redesign meetings in the world of work, but what shifts can we make to the way meetings are done? That will make them better, if not perfect?

Emma Taggart 37:01
Okay, so on that first question about waving a magic wand, do you know how to make them better? It's not actually that hard. I don't think a magic wand is needed actually.

Personally, I think anyone who's regularly running a meeting ought to invest a little bit of time and learning how to facilitate properly, which isn't hard to learn. But I don't want to do down the facilitation skills. Because, yeah, there's a real skill there. But the basics can be learned fairly rapidly. But the thing that every meeting should have, in my opinion, is an agenda where it's clear what's under discussion. Is this for information? Or are we making a decision? You know, what do I need from the people in this meeting, so they can prepare, and come ready to speak.

Every meeting, in my view should have a clear chairperson, who is responsible for making sure that everybody's voice gets heard, or that everybody who wants to be heard is heard because sometimes people don't want to speak and that's okay. You don't have to speak in every meeting. But when people do have something to say, it's incumbent on the chair, to do things like make sure that there is some turn taking, rather than just letting the loudest people butt in and dominate the conversation. It's things like having some agreed ways that people can signal turn B, to say that they would say something.

Yeah, it's also recognising that speaking isn't everybody's preferred way of thinking and processing. And so just building in really small pauses to a meeting just 30 seconds or so can be enough. Yeah, ask a question. Have a pause and then start the discussion. Just that small gap can make it so much easier for someone with an introverted preference to just formulate some words and be able to speak. So there's, there's a few ideas, there's plenty more I'm sure that we could get into but those are a few that immediately spring to mind.

Carla Miller 39:14
And the question for you if I am chairing a meeting, and I've noticed that someone hasn't contributed and actually I know that they would add value to the conversation. Is it every interest nightmare to be called on? Or is that a positive thing?

Emma Taggart 39:31
I think you can't generalise. Some people would find it excruciating to be called on specifically by name and asked to contribute.

Others would be quite happy and be probably quite grateful that there have been asked rather than have to butt in. And so don't think you can generalise but in in general, I wouldn't sort of hone in on people specifically if we can avoid it. But I would either do something like turn taking where you make it clear that if someone doesn't want to speak, they can pass on their turn, but at least go round and give people an opportunity to add something if they want to. Or just, you know, say something like, you know, there’s a few people we haven’t heard from yet. Is there anybody who would like to say something? Because then that's giving people the opportunity to come in. But yeah, probably best to, to not hone in on individuals if at all possible.

Carla Miller 40:32
Okay, good to know. And yeah, as a facilitator, that's, I'm very conscious of how comfortable or uncomfortable someone might feel contributing, but it's that is reading the room, isn't it as well. And I think the more if you're not naturally introverted than learning to get better at listening, and reading the room, as a chair, which is then challenging if you're trying to contribute and chair at the same time, I'm sure. That is quite especially if you're an introverted think about other things going on there.

Emma Taggart 41:10
Absolutely. And that is another thing. Actually, you've sparked in my mind, Carla, another tip, I suppose for how to make meetings more inclusive, and how to make Yeah, in that, and that is that I've never understood why. So many meetings have to introduce a topic and make a decision all within the same hour. You know, okay, sometimes there are times where you do need a really quick decision, it's got to be done, we get that that happens. But the vast majority of the time, it's not necessary to do the brainstorm, do the thinking and then make a decision. It's about separating out the different parts of the process, they, you know, letting people know that there's this topic we're going to discuss, this is what we need to be looking at, give people a chance to come to the initial meeting, having thought about that before, if they want to, you have the discussion in that first meeting, you get all the information on the table, you chew it and bow a little bit. And then you go away, and give people the media a chance to just take in what they're covered and think about it, and then you come back and make a decision, because then everybody has had a chance to actually process and think about it, and the decision will be better as a result and, and everyone will feel they've had a chance to be part of it.

Carla Miller 42:29
I totally agree and I've never seen it happen, because I stopped suggesting that now. Yeah, again, getting really clear on the purpose of a meeting, obviously. But then having the separate bit a little bit later on the decision making. But I've never seen it have happened. Have you been to a meeting wherever it's happened? Have you seen it happen?

Emma Taggart 42:52
Well, any meetings that I used to be in charge of making would happen with that that's, and any time I'm facilitating now, it doesn't very often these days, but when I do it, I'll do it that way.

Even if you don't ever have to be days in between it, you can have a small gap and then come back. And yeah, I think I can recall a couple of people who have generally split the split it in that way and kind of let's get into the the information and the topic and chew it around. And then let's come back and make a decision later. But I think that even with the best intentions, what mitigates against that in workplace is just how busy everything is all the time. And again, you can have a whole other conversation with you about the craziness of the busy culture that we're all stuck in, right, and of course back to that meeting is a part of that. But it really makes it hard to slow down to actually reflect and think deeply about something was actually my very strongly held view is that we would all be better off if we brought a little bit more of that reflection and deep thinking into our work and just slowed the whatever down for a bit. Yeah, but I know that's not a fashionable view. And it's not something lots of people would go with, but I feel that very strongly.

Carla Miller 44:12
Yeah, that makes total sense to me. And I think we're now we are hopefully seeing a little bit more of that breathing space between meetings, as well like not necessarily running the full half hour or the full hour because if you're exhausted by lots of stimulation, then it makes it incredibly hard to show up fresh to a meeting. They love those, haven't they? I've seen it on LinkedIn. I'm sure you'd have as well like brain scans of what your brain looks like, after it's been on a call for two hours. And it's not pretty.

Emma Taggart 44:43
Yeah, exactly and I you know, I would guess that's also not a great experience for extroverted people to have, you know, might not might not feel it quite as quickly or as keenly as an introverted person. But none of us are not doing anyone any good to be in those back to backs all the time, and to have no respect Ace today if nothing happens, so you know, it's just good to have to shut myself up because I could run on about that for a long time, believe me.

Carla Miller 45:09
And as we bring this conversation to a close, is there anything else that you think workplaces could be doing to be more introvert friendly?

Emma Taggart 45:18
Um, gosh, where to begin with that? Well, just in terms of meetings. There's a couple of things.

So we talked about, you know, the fact that people are expected to jump in rather than it be chaired. And you said, you know, in with in the absence of a magic wand, and everyone suddenly having great facilitation skills, what do you do? Well, you know, I think there's a few things. And they're very simple things. And one is just to to establish that norm, if you haven't already, that in your meetings, there is a signal of some sort that people can use if they want to speak, that can be as simple as a hand gesture, you know, kind of holding your hand up, not like you're in school, but just, you know, putting your elbow on the table and leaning forward and making a sort of bold gesture with your hand to demonstrate that you want to come in. And that can work in person or online. If you're on an online meeting there Nina using the chat box and being again, establishing a norm that it's okay to use the chat box, if you want to say something.

Obviously, we're not going to write an essay in the chat box. Although we might like to some of us introverts might like that. But you know, we're not going to write an essay in the chat box. But we can put something simple like I have something I want to say, can you come to me next, you know, if you finding it difficult to jump into that constant stream of talk, just use the chat box to flick signal that you've got something to say and as the Chair make it, okay, that people can do that be explicit that that's okay. And also, if you're the chair and you you've maybe got a regular meeting, and you know that, you know, there's people that that don't seem to say very much, maybe go and find them and just say no, I've noticed that you don't always have much to say in the meeting. But I just wanted to know, if there's anything I can do to make the meeting more inclusive for you, you know, what do you need from me? Because I guarantee that all of those introverts that are being told they're too quiet and that they're not speaking up enough, have got absolutely a shitload to say, If the meeting is running away, that makes it possible for them to contribute. Yeah, there's a lot going on in those heads that that people aren't seeing. And, you know, frankly, we all have a responsibility to make sure that those thoughts can get out into the world.

Carla Miller 47:40
Definitely, well, we've covered all sorts of things today. And I've definitely learned a lot about introversion. So thank you so much for coming on, Emma. And if anyone wants to find out more about working with you, where should they go? Anything you want to tell people about?

Emma Taggart 47:59
Well, people can find me on LinkedIn, I'm always welcome to connect with people on there. And if you follow me on there, you'll get pretty much daily stuff about this subject.

What I also suggest is that you download a copy of my free introverts Success Scorecard. So you can find that on my website, no doubt there'll be a link in the shownotes to that. But basically, in just a few minutes, the scorecard enables you to assess how you're doing against nine criteria, that you need to build a successful career as an introverted leader and to just help you have more influence and impact without having to change who you are.

So it will show you how to feel more confident and at ease with yourself rather than thinking you have to lead in some other way that other people are expecting. It will help you to gain value and recognition for what you bring. And it'll help you take control of your career so you can progress in the way you want. Without having to go out there and boast about what you do and all that stuff that introverts hate. They do.

Go and get that scorecard is that my website, which is www.nl target.co.uk, forward slash scorecard hyphen, sign up, and I say I'm sure there'll be a link in the show notes. If you're kind enough to do that Carla.

Carla Miller 49:31
Absolutely. It sounds like a really helpful resource for people to have. Emma may well be some people that have had a little bit of a light bulb moment during this podcast when they're out walking their dog, or commuting home and gone, Oh, maybe I'm an introvert and I just didn't know it. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your passion and your knowledge. I love following you on LinkedIn. So I thoroughly recommend everyone. Go do that and and I look forward to having you back on the podcast another time to keep chatting about this. Thank you, Emma.

Emma Taggart 50:05
Thank you so much Carla, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Carla Miller 50:17
Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're not already subscribing, please do so so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if you want to go deeper on the topics that we talk about here on the podcast on confidence, self-doubt impostor feelings, increasing your influence being better at leading, then there are a few avenues that you can take. The simplest is to get yourself a copy of my book, Closing the Influence Gap.

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