Carla Miller [00:00:07]:
Do you experience anxiety or nerves when you have to present at an important meeting or do a talk? On my be bolder course, I asked participants how they'd feel if they were told they need to present to 200 people the next day. Now, responses vary, but at least of people respond with something along the lines of no why is it that public speaking creates such a strong reaction in many of us? And more practically, how do we overcome those nerves to be able to perform at our best? That's what I'm going to be talking about with my guest today, Olivia James, who's a Harley street performance specialist and therapist. Now she treats professional confidence issues, public speaking anxiety and trauma to clients, including entrepreneurs, senior leaders and public figures, and they've gone on to deliver successful keynotes, pitches, TEDx's and tv appearances. Olivia works with clients on the root causes of performance and confidence issues and believes that the nervous system is key to unlocking peak performance, treating confidence issues and overcoming unhelpful behaviours. Now, as well as uncovering why we feel so anxious, Olivia and I discuss some specific strategies that you can use ahead of a presentation to go in feeling calm and we talk about how to deal with going blank or losing your train of thought during a presentation. I've taken some really fantastic tactics from this conversation and I'm sure you will too. This is the influence and impact podcast for women leaders, helping you confidently navigate the ups and downs of leadership and feel less alone on your journey as a leader. My name is Carla Miller.

Carla Miller [00:02:01]:
I've been coaching leaders for the past 15 years and I am your new leadership bestie. And as your bestie, I'm here to remind you of the value you bring to your organization, to help you believe in yourself and to share practical tools and insights from myself and my brilliant guests that will help you succeed in your career. Now, if speaking in meetings in general is something you struggle with, then do ask your employer to fund you to attend our March b Boulder course, as well as helping you become more confident generally and turn down the volume on your inner critic. We have an entire workshop dedicated to helping you speak up confidently and get your voice heard in meetings. And you can go to Carlamiller Co. Uk Bebolder. No space between the words to find out more. Now let's dive into today's episode and some tips you can use for being a more confident public speaker.

Carla Miller [00:03:08]:
Lots of people do seem to experiencing fear and challenges around public speaking. Why do you think that is? Why do you think it seems to be a fear that impacts so many people.

Olivia James [00:03:19]:
The first thing I want to say is, like, there's a myth that people go around saying that people fear it more than death. Public speaking sport feared more than death. That's not actually true. It comes from a study that was done, a book of lists in 1973. So it was the first thing that most people thought of, but a lot of people thought of creepy crawlies and getting illness and all this kind of stuff. But the reason people fear it is because you'll see behind me there's a whole chart of the nervous system. What happens with people with public speaking anxiety, that even the thought of public speaking can provoke a physical anxiety response. I had a client in my office the other day, and I said, well, how are you going to feel about doing that presentation in Germany next week? And literally, he showed me his palms, even at the thought of it, started to sweat.

Olivia James [00:04:13]:
Like kind of the origin story of public speaking. Anxiety is often a bad experience in the past. So somebody may have had the nervous system, and the psychology learns, oh, a bad thing could happen here. So maybe, I don't know what it was like when you were at school. Do you remember that? When you used to go have to read a sentence from a book, and you would sit there and you would wait and you'd go, oh, God. And you'd think, oh, no, I hope I don't have that sentence. You try and work out which one it was, and then the idea of making a mistake and maybe people laughing at you or the teacher being mean or nasty to you. So sometimes people can learn it quite early on.

Olivia James [00:04:56]:
Nobody's born with the fear of public speaking. Babies are born, like, with two fears, loud noises and falling. All the other fears are like, we learn them later on. So often it's a deep psychological fear of ridicule or rejection. Deep down, that's often what's at the heart of it. But then rationally understanding that doesn't necessarily stop the response from happening. If my client rationally knows that he's scared of being rejected or ridiculed, it's not necessarily going to uncouple the thoughts of him doing a presentation in Germany with the instant body freak out. That instant nervous system reaction of this is dangerous.

Olivia James [00:05:47]:
So that's where the detective work starts, basically.

Carla Miller [00:05:53]:
That makes sense. And I guess with public speaking, it's on a scale, isn't it? So you just feel so much more exposed in terms of that vulnerability than you might do one to one. And so is there a spectrum from that sort of feeling that many people might get of all this presentation is going to be out of my comfort zone. I'll be relieved when it's over through to phobia. What does that spectrum look like?

Olivia James [00:06:15]:
Yeah, that's a very good point. So some people, what you and I doing now for them would be completely and utterly impossible and terrifying. For some people, the thought of just you and I doing this podcast now, they would rather harm their career than do it so often where the response is so that the person just wants to avoid it, they want to run away. Basically their whole nervous system is like, I can't do this. Like a complete and utter mental and physical freak out that's different from somebody going, oh, I've got a few butterflies in my tummy, or I feel my heart's beating a little bit fast. This is like a proper trauma response where everything else goes out of the window. So any career ideas that they might have or where they want to go in their career, or anything that just goes out of the window. Because the nervous system basically has three, your brain has three priorities, basically.

Olivia James [00:07:19]:
So there's the rational kind of career strategy, all this kind of stuff, then there's the physical safety, and then there's the survival. And what happens with somebody with a severe phobia is their nervous system goes into a full on survival response as if they're being physically attacked. So that's kind of where the person will know. Actually, my symptoms are so bad that I don't care about anything. I've heard of people, obviously, and the way that I talk about my clients is I can talk about them in the most general terms. You will never know who this person is. I've had somebody describe it, they're at a conference, they're mic'd up, they tell the people, they say to the AVTM, I'm just nipping to the toilet and never come back. Like that is a proper, I don't care about my career, my reputation, anything.

Olivia James [00:08:13]:
I have to get out of here, I can't do it. And you can't rationalize your way out of that. You can't say, well, you do realize that statistically speaking, they won't reject you or all this kind of, that rational stuff's not going to help when the nervous system is in complete enough freak out.

Carla Miller [00:08:31]:
So, yeah, how interesting. And I guess at that level of it, it's not a choice at all, is it? It's just. No, then it's not a choice. I physically can't do that. I just need to get out, or.

Olivia James [00:08:44]:
Sometimes can come in the middle of a presentation where suddenly the nervous system goes into freak out mode and the brain will go blank, it's almost like the whole nervous system will freeze and they literally lose access to the rational part of their brain going blank on stage in front of a lot of people. I've had clients that's happened to where then that becomes like a traumatic memory that sort of informs their anxiety, where the nervous system goes, well, you don't want to do that again because look what happened last time. So then that has to be treated sort of like that nasty, traumatic memory has to be treated as well as try and work out why the nervous system went into complete freeze mode in that moment as well.

Carla Miller [00:09:28]:
So our nervous system sounds incredibly powerful. It's something I'm reading about at the moment, actually. So I'm hoping to have a specific episode on that. But for people like me that really don't know very much about the nervous system, what is it important that people know about their nervous system as it relates to this?

Olivia James [00:09:44]:
Yeah, so basically, we like to think that we're very rational and that we are very modern and that we're sort of very goal driven. But the nervous system is basically what runs the show. All of us are made of flesh and blood and nerves and basically guts. And the nervous system is very powerful. So like I said earlier on, it's got these different priorities. And the oldest part of your nervous system, but basically just wants you to survive. Then the next level, it wants you to be safe, and then the next level is all your career goals and everything else that you might have. What happens is when your nervous system detects danger, like when it scans a room and it decides, oh, I don't like the way that person looks at me.

Olivia James [00:10:32]:
Or when you're driving, you see a car and you think, oh, I don't trust that car. I think they're going to do something dodgy, right? So the nervous system picks up scans for danger. And when your nervous system scans for danger and it picks up something dangerous, like real or imagined, it will automatically activate. The autonomic nervous system will automatically activate that fight flight response or the freeze response. So basically, then you're at the mercy of it, because obviously people talk about getting hijacked by the nervous system. And of course, that's very useful if you're in physical danger, you want those responses to kick in. The problem is that when those responses kick in, basically most of the blood will go to your body in fight flight mode. It'll leave your prefrontal cortex, your rational kind of newest bit of your brain.

Olivia James [00:11:23]:
It'll go to your heart, your arms, your lungs, because you need to either run or punch somebody, right? So then you don't have access to that rational part of the brain as much. The nervous system is very powerful, and you've probably been reading about the vagus nerve. And you'll see behind me, for those people who are watching this on YouTube, you'll see this poster of the nervous system behind me with the different kind of states of the nervous system. Because without making. I call it making friends with the nervous system. And that's what I help my clients do when they go from nervous to being able to actually do keynotes and tv and stuff, is I help them real make friends with the nervous system and actually build safety and a zone of tolerance in the nervous system. On that lots of people talk about, you'll see these, like, motivational bros on LinkedIn talking about getting out of your comfort zone and all this kind of stuff. But when somebody's had quite a lot of trauma, my sort of approach is to help them expand their comfort zone so that their window of tolerance and their window of safety gets bigger, rather than pushing somebody who's already anxious to go outside their comfort zone, because that can actually be counterproductive and they can be quite overwhelming.

Olivia James [00:12:40]:
And if they have a bad experience, then there's more work to be done to try and get them to try it again, basically.

Carla Miller [00:12:49]:
That makes sense. It makes me think about my small child learning to swim. And one of the dads said to me, just throw him in and he'll work it out.

Olivia James [00:12:57]:
And I was like, no, that would traumatize him.

Carla Miller [00:13:00]:
And there might be some kids that would work on, but definitely not mine. But it's that same principle.

Olivia James [00:13:05]:
This is a really good example. When I did my trauma training in America, I did a lot of body based trauma work, and this was one of the examples that Dr. David Basselli gave, is that little nervous system of a child being thrown in, or like when they go down a slide and their mum and dad or dad isn't there to catch them and they go under, their little nervous system thinks they're drowning, and it's that momentary, like this is dangerous. Their nervous system doesn't know they're going to get caught or that somebody's going to fish them out of the water. It's a bit old school, isn't it? It's a bit medieval, a bit 1980s. Toughen them up. Never did me any harm, that kind of.

Carla Miller [00:13:49]:
Exactly. And so what are some of the things that we can do ahead of a terrifying presentation? Let's say we're not at phobia stage, but we have extreme nerves ahead of an important presentation. What are some of the suggestions you could make for how we can go into that situation a bit calmer?

Olivia James [00:14:09]:
First of all, you got to know your stuff. Prepare more than you think. Make sure that you especially hone your beginning and your ending so that you will get a little bit nervous. Just in that moment as you're about to go on, you will get a little bit more nervous. The more you've rehearsed what you're saying and actually spoken it lots of different times, the more likely it is you're going to remember it and be able to at least nail that opening and the ending. The other thing, there is loads of different techniques that you can do while you're waiting to get ready, and they all relate to the nervous system. One is as you're waiting and there's no one around, if you move your neck from side to side and scan the environment, I'm doing those for people watching. What you're literally doing is you're telling your really old part of your nervous system.

Olivia James [00:15:00]:
I've scanned for predators and there aren't any. Try this. This really, really works. The other thing you can do is, as you're waiting to go on, if you possibly can, depending on the way the conference or the presentation is set up, try and talk to a few people beforehand. So if you're speaking at a conference, try and talk to a few people, say, how are you? What it brings you here? Kind of thing. Make eye contact and smile at them. That will help get your nervous system into that safe social engagement zone. Basically what also does it takes your attention out from your own anxiety and your body and going, oh, my God, my heart's beating.

Olivia James [00:15:43]:
This is going to be bad. Bad. You then put your attention outwards and you connect with other people's nervous systems and that will help settle you. So behind me, for those of you watching on YouTube, the green zone, the save zone is actually the face. So the more eye contact you can make and the more you can smile and chat to people, the more it'll help settle your nervous system. Those are two of the most practical things. So preparation, move your neck and do the smiley smile and smile that will help settle your nervous system.

Carla Miller [00:16:20]:
I love that. Okay, so we're just turning our heads to the side, looking around, basically scanning the horizon. Great. That's a great way to remember it.

Olivia James [00:16:28]:
Okay.

Carla Miller [00:16:29]:
And I like the idea of faces as well because, yeah, I've read before that our nervous systems are connected to each other, aren't they? So if you're connecting with someone.

Olivia James [00:16:38]:
Yes.

Carla Miller [00:16:38]:
Then you're like, oh, I have a little bit of a calm from their nervous system.

Olivia James [00:16:41]:
Our nervous systems, they co regulate. We've all had this. Sometimes you might meet someone who's super anxious and super, super anxious, and if you're not careful, you will get more anxious because you're with them. If you're with someone who feels really calm and settled and safe, your nervous system can relax. So all of us, we co regulate. So using that, when you're getting ready for a speak and talk to various different people, it makes such a difference. It really, really makes a difference. I've done this myself at loads of different, I've spoken at loads of different events and I've done that and it really, really helps and it's fun.

Olivia James [00:17:22]:
Plus, then also the audience will go, oh, they're actually nice. They're actually interested in me. They haven't just come to talk at me, they're actually interested in getting to know me. Like, what brings me here? So, yeah, that will make it feel less threatening and more like a social collaborative type thing as well, if that doesn't sound too hippie ish. But basically you're there to share information and make a connection with your audience. That's why you're there, right?

Carla Miller [00:17:48]:
Absolutely. And it's interesting what you said about co regulating, because it took me back to, I never used to be scared of flying. And then I flew to South Africa and back next to a good friend who was terrified of flying. So, like ten hour, eleven hour flight twice. And I was scared of flying for years after that. I was like, where has this fear come from? But basically I've been absorbing his fear.

Olivia James [00:18:09]:
Yeah, you got infected. Exactly. And this is the same thing where we kind of learn. So then your nervous system goes, oh, maybe he's got a point. Exactly.

Carla Miller [00:18:22]:
And then within the be bolder confidence course that I run, we run a session on speaking up in meetings and I talk to people about, what are you worried about? What are your fears? And the biggest fear that comes up is I'm going to freeze halfway through and my mind is going to go blank. And it does happen. And I think you explained earlier, that's sort of your nervous system kicking in at that point.

Olivia James [00:18:45]:
Yes.

Carla Miller [00:18:46]:
How do we deal with that in the moment?

Olivia James [00:18:48]:
Well, sometimes, of course. And I'm thinking back to a lot of my clients who have been, they're like, I need to be able to speak, but I'm worried about speaking in meetings. Often they've had a really bad experience. Many of my clients have been bullied at a previous role or had a really difficult home life, or they've had a very critical parent, or, look, a dysfunctional parent, or they've had a tricky school life. So often there's a reason, and very often, there has been a very colleague in the past who's made them more self conscious and more nervous. So if that is the case, then some sort of therapy to help deal with that would help. And then also, there are, again, some of the same techniques that I shared earlier, but also thinking, okay, I am here to make a contribution. And then maybe say something small and then see, oh, actually, the world didn't end.

Olivia James [00:19:52]:
Try something small. And also, again, try and wherever possible, try and anticipate what might come up in the meeting so you can prepare. The other thing is that sometimes, if somebody is an introvert, many of my clients are introverts. If they're an introvert, a question out of the blue can make them freeze as well. And then what happens? Then after that, they beat themselves up and they go, oh, God, this is terrible. I'm such a loser. Why couldn't I just say something? And then, of course, beating yourself up is understandable, but it creates more tension and it creates more difficulty about the whole thing. So if it is really bad, then again, try and deal with some of the root causes.

Olivia James [00:20:38]:
Try and get a little bit of therapy about perhaps your first boss, who was a real mean so and so, because that's, again, the nervous system will go, oh, this is like that time. And it's not even a rational thing. Sometimes when I'm working with clients, it's like they work out that if there is a senior man in the room, whether a man or a woman, it reminds them of a past experience where a bad things happen. And the nervous system, remember, also would rather err off the side of. On the side of caution. It would rather go activate the defenses. It would rather be safe than sorry. So what can sometimes happen is that it can start to loop, and it's a bit like a car alarm that goes off every time a cat walks by.

Olivia James [00:21:25]:
It just needs to be recalibrated because it's not actually a dangerous situation, but the nervous system would rather be safe than sorry. And you'll find this with phobias, too. The plane is scary. And then suddenly, they don't want to go on a double decker bus and suddenly they don't want to go on the tube. And then suddenly it's like, before you know it, a phobia can loop as well. And it's understandable that people avoid it, but ideally, find someone that can help you if it's a serious thing that makes sense.

Carla Miller [00:21:55]:
And I'm going to ask you more about that in a second. Let's say you're on a stage at a conference and you have frozen. Would you acknowledge what's going on? Because that would be my instinct to go, oh, sorry, I totally lost my place, and then use humor and then get back into it.

Olivia James [00:22:10]:
Absolutely.

Carla Miller [00:22:11]:
If that would you do?

Olivia James [00:22:12]:
I would definitely. And also, I was watching a lot of my colleagues are professional speakers and with a client as well. Before we do a present, I get them ready for a presentation mentally and physically. But then also we'll prepare and I'll say, okay, think of all the things that could go wrong. And some people will say, oh, that's a really negative thing. But no, let's be realistic. The reality is you may go blank, the tech may fail, you may get a really unpleasant question in the Q A. So let's prepare.

Olivia James [00:22:50]:
Try and think of, depending on what age you are, you can go, oh, I've come over a bit like I've had a senior moment or whatever. You're a computer person, you go, I had a temporary blue screen of death, or whatever. You prepare a little joke and often remember in your head, this pause is going to feel longer than to the audience, so you can just come up with a little joke or something. If this is difficult, again, enlist the help of a trusted friend or a colleague to help you come up with one that's going to feel good to you. Audiences, on the whole, don't really mind things going wrong. It's how you handle it, actually, how you handle it can really help enhance your reputation. And again, this links to the nervous system, because most of the time we are so worried about how we come across that we can get more uptight, like a very comfortable presence on stage as well. It comes back to that co regulation.

Olivia James [00:23:52]:
A very comfortable presence on stage can handle things going wrong and can handle little things like that and take it in their stride. And that then gives the audience nervous system permission to settle as well. So it's like watching a speaker have a little moment and go, oh, temporary blip, or say whatever, like some computer to like the blue screen of death. Or I just needed to reboot my brain or whatever it might be, come up with something like that and then get straight back on it. And if that is likely to happen, try and have some sort of crib notes somewhere, some little cards or something if you're worried about it. And then you can refer to that quickly. There are loads of different speaker tricks where you can quickly find your place again.

Carla Miller [00:24:36]:
I really like that idea of preparing for what could go wrong. Tim Ferriss talks about fear mapping. So mapping what could go wrong and then what are the consequences of that and what can you do to try and counteract it? And it makes you feel more in control. And I tend to do that if I'm spiraling.

Olivia James [00:24:53]:
Makes you feel more resourced as well. If you are a person who suffers with a lot of anxiety, that is going to be done much better with somebody else, because on your own you may well spin out. And this is why I'm not a presentation coach, but what I'll sometimes do with clients is if they have a really big thing. Like one of my clients went from nervous in meetings to being invited to go live on the BBC and now does a lot of business, american tv. Then working with a presentation specialist just on those techniques can make all the difference. So you feel that having someone in your corner, even for that technical stuff, who says, try this, trust me, it's going to work. Or like, even with jokes and stuff like that, having someone who knows their stuff in your corner makes all the difference. And that's not something that I generally do with clients, but that's definitely an option.

Olivia James [00:25:54]:
For once I've treated the anxiety, then they can go off and really fly, basically, which is so fun.

Carla Miller [00:26:01]:
I think if you're operating at a senior level, particularly in a large global company where there is a lot of exposure and presentations, making that investment in yourself on both sides, on the mental side, if that's something you struggle with, and then just on the skills development side seems to me to be a really good.

Olivia James [00:26:22]:
Yeah, that's a very good point. I mean, sometimes I think people with anxiety, they're almost like children when they have this magical thinking where they think, okay, so Olivia's going to remove my anxiety, make me confident, and then I'll automatically be a good professional speaker. No, it's a skill. You have to learn like it's a craft, it's a skill. You have to learn that. It's not like suddenly I'll be able to ride my unicycle if the fear is gone. Do you know what I mean? You still have to learn how to do it. So, yes, absolutely.

Carla Miller [00:26:55]:
And I think for me, when I'm speaking, I try and think about what energy am I bringing and how do I want the audience to feel like I am not naturally a highly energetic, extroverted person, but I can think about, do I want people to feel calmed? Do I want them to feel reassured? Do I want them to feel inspired and really try and feel that and embody that myself? Because our energy is infectious. And I always think, even if you fluff up some words like this podcast is never perfect, but the intention and the energy is there, which means it does land with people. Now tell us really briefly about how do you work with people in terms of you've talked about working with this trauma and with their nervous system. Could you just tell us a bit about those couple of techniques that you use? Because I know you're trained in various techniques, just so that they get a sense of what that might look like to work with you on that.

Olivia James [00:27:53]:
What I tend to do is obviously we'll have a session face to face, or virtually, and I will assess the person, try and work out where their triggers are, and then depending on that, I will basically create a little bespoke recipe for each person using a lot of the different techniques. And on a given day, I do some sort of meridian stimulation techniques. You may have seen, like tapping techniques. There's a lot of tapping techniques that I don't approve of at all, that are completely stupid and counterproductive. And that's speaking as somebody who's trained all over the world in all sorts of different techniques. So a lot of it will be physical and mental techniques. So I do some eye movement stuff for specific traumas. I do some body based techniques as well.

Olivia James [00:28:46]:
So most of it isn't all going to be just me talking and asking them about how do you feel about that? And were you bullied at school and all this? Often it feels more like a conversation, but we do some techniques, and I had an amazing testimonial a while ago from someone who's actually a professional speaker, who's like a really high level, very experienced professional speaker. She gave a public testimonial, so I can kind of refer to her a little bit XBBC, like keynote speaker. And in our work, we just chatted. There was laughter, there were tears, there were loads of different techniques. And it got to the point where she was able to go back to enjoying what she does, what she is amazing at, without anxiety, and actually being able to deliver without all sorts of other anxiety to do with travel, outfits, all this kind of stuff. So basically, I can't say, oh, I've got one technique. That's my go to techniques. It's basically a bespoke.

Olivia James [00:29:55]:
What I do is very bespoke. So it's a bespoke recipe, but it isn't just talking. Usually there's lots of laughter, there's tears, and I try and make it as light and as fun as I possibly can. Even though obviously people coming with something that's quite a big deal. If somebody has a new role that they're starting and they're really worried, it's a really big deal because there's so much else wrapped up in it. It's like, am I going to be able to pay the mortgage? Am I going to be able to, if applicable, look after my children properly? Am I going to be. There's so much wrapped up in career. There's so much almost survival stuff.

Olivia James [00:30:34]:
If I can fix this, then my career and my kids and my family and my home life will be better. If I don't fix this, I don't know what will happen. And then it can start to loop so often. It's a real responsibility, like what I do, and I try and make it as effective and fast as possible without making it seem heavier than it needs to be.

Carla Miller [00:30:57]:
And that makes sense to me. I mean, obviously I'm a big fan of coaching, but coaching very much works with your logical, rational brain. And yes, there are definitely times when I refer people and I say, go and find someone who can do breath work with you or something more energetic or like you say, what's it called? The eye movement one?

Olivia James [00:31:18]:
The one I'm trying is iemt. There was another one called EMDR. But, yeah, it can be incredibly effective for traumatic memories because it cuts out.

Carla Miller [00:31:28]:
Your brain, doesn't it, in a way, and gets straight to the issue.

Olivia James [00:31:30]:
Well, yeah, I mean, it uses your brain, and when it's a very traumatic thing, it's really helpful. Sometimes it's helpful to talk about it and sometimes it isn't. So there are ways that I can deal with trauma where the person doesn't even have to tell me the whole story of what it is. And that can be very helpful. Sometimes the person has had a thing happen that's causing their anxiety, where they may not even exactly remember because it's like such a long time ago, where it's so deeply buried that there are still ways that you can deal with the trauma that's at the root of the anxiety without them having to tell you the whole story and even being able to be conscious, because telling the story can actually retraumatize. There's a book about the nervous system that I don't recommend at all. I had to read it during my training called the body keeps a score. People may have heard of it.

Olivia James [00:32:28]:
The reason I don't recommend it is because it's full of horrendous stories of trauma. But it's true. The basis of the book is, like, the body does keep the score. I always give this example. So I had quite a nasty accident. I was cycling. This is like 20 od years ago. I was cycling, and I was waiting at a junction, and this van, instead of moving forward, reversed into me.

Olivia James [00:33:01]:
There was blood, there was like a really nasty facial injury. And after that, so I got all the dental work done and everything else, and then after that, every time I saw a reversing light, my nervous system would go into complete and utter freak out. Because, like you said, the rational part of my brain will know, well, this guy, this is a different occasion. This is a different car. It's not going to happen. But the nervous system would rather keep me safe. So it would go complete and utter like. And the way that the trauma responds the body, it comes up, it's not top down.

Olivia James [00:33:38]:
It's like, WHOOP. So I did some of these, the eye open techniques to try and help me uncouple that memory, that visual, and that trauma response from that whole traumatic incident to the point where now it doesn't bother me in the same way. And me going to counseling and talking about that incident for, like, eight to ten sessions isn't going to help me uncouple. It's not going to help me with that complete and utter body response. So that's where some of these kind of more advanced techniques can be very helpful.

Carla Miller [00:34:16]:
That's a really helpful way to explain it. Thanks, Olivia. And then before we finish up, I know that you were interested to share some of your thoughts on impostor syndrome. So you've got a particular view on that? I believe.

Olivia James [00:34:30]:
I do. So my clients, I see a lot of men. I see a lot of men, very successful people with amazingly, outwardly successful people, kind of corporates as well as entrepreneurs. And most people who come to me, even the men, say to me, I have impostor syndrome. And so the idea that there is a notion that it's basically that it's predominantly a female problem, and that if only women were just a bit more confident, they would earn more money and there'd be more with female leaders, and everything would be groovy. Now, the reality that you and I both know is that there are major systemic issues that are basically when it comes to women and female leaders especially. So the idea that it's somehow. It's like a little wist.

Olivia James [00:35:25]:
It's a bit like an abuser making you think it's your fault. It's like saying, oh, well, come on, love. Just be a bit more confident. Come on, love. We really want you to. And it's just such a nice. It's, like, such a number that people do on women that they try to do on women. And my thing is like, so I I feel really for.

Olivia James [00:35:49]:
Obviously, I'm. I'm. I'm in the corner of all my clients, but especially for the men. I think most of the men, they think they're on their own as well. So, as on. My thing about impostor syndrome is, like. And I've coached female doctors, all sorts, incredibly successful people. And I think impostor syndrome is often, like, there is a little trauma link to it, for sure, in my clinical experience.

Olivia James [00:36:16]:
And also, the only people who don't suffer from impostor syndrome are, like, grandiose narcissists, people like Johnson and Trump, who just think their genius is so incredible that they don't actually have to do any work. Like, everything should just come to them. My take on the impostor syndrome is, like, ideally, your competence and your confidence should match so that you know that, yes, I know I can do this, and that it's realistic. So, with impostor syndrome, your competence is higher than your confidence. With impostor syndrome, people are way their confidence way outstrips their competence. So that's basically, we just need to kind of keep it more rationally. And lots of people say to me, oh, but even men and women, they go, I wish I had a little bit of that grandiose kind of narcissism. I wish I had a little bit of that BS attitude.

Olivia James [00:37:18]:
So, we sometimes work with personas in my work. And so if you are confident, what it would be. But basically, what happens when your nervous system goes into that fight flight response? This rational brain shuts off, and then you can't accurately assess your confidence and your competence. So that is often where, when the anxiety kicks in, it would rather keep you safe and say, actually, you probably can't do know. Oh, don't get too big for your boots, Carla. Well, what do you mean? You want to start a YouTube channel? What do you mean, you want to do this. So it's like often the anxiety, the job is, it's actually trying to keep you safe. It's trying to stop you from making a fool of yourself or reaching too far and then protect you from rejection.

Olivia James [00:38:08]:
So that can be a good way to look at it. But again, key is a nervous system. Like, look back on your past, try and work out where some of those traumatic memories are coming from that are informing your current response. And then resource yourself with techniques, coaches, whatever, and then off you go and see what can be possible. That makes sense, because we need more women. We need more competent women. Enough of. There's a book, it's called why do so many incompetent men become leaders? And basically, you've probably seen this book, and basically, there are often not enough barriers.

Olivia James [00:38:47]:
There aren't enough barriers to mediocre men, basically. So we need more women, competent, amazing women to go for it, basically, yeah.

Carla Miller [00:38:59]:
And people are being promoted based on confidence, not on competence. The book makes the point that we're measuring the wrong things and looking for the wrong things in leadership. It's a really interesting book. I agree. And I think I have a slightly different take on. I mean, I call it impostor feelings because I think it does come and go, but for me, absolutely. I see the confidence. So I do a lot of confidence training, obviously.

Carla Miller [00:39:21]:
I see that as sort of recovery from what gender bias and your work experience has done to you. Because lots of women go in confident and then two years in the workplace.

Olivia James [00:39:30]:
Absolutely.

Carla Miller [00:39:31]:
And they've become less ambitious, and they're no longer thinking of such senior leadership roles. So it's really interesting, isn't it? I think we need both, don't we? We need that systemic change, and we need women to recognize how good they actually are because they've had it knocked out of them.

Olivia James [00:39:45]:
Exactly.

Carla Miller [00:39:46]:
Well, it's been wonderful talking to you about public speaking. I know that there will be some people going, I need to talk to Olivia. Where's the best place for people to find you or find out more about you?

Olivia James [00:39:58]:
Yeah. So my biggest social platform is LinkedIn. So please connect with me on LinkedIn. Love to hear from you. My website, harleystreetcoach.com, and I think I've also sent you a link. If somebody wants to book, like, a 20 minutes call with me to talk about anything that they can. And if they do book a call like that, I don't even know how to do a hard sell. So fear not.

Olivia James [00:40:25]:
If you book one of those calls I'm not going to try and do mind tricks on you to try and manipulate you into having coaching. I know some people do that. The coaching world has been there's a lot of bad stuff in the coaching world, but just fear not. Rest assured, if you want to have a chat with me, please feel free to book a chat and in complete confidence. Brilliant.

Carla Miller [00:40:44]:
Thanks Olivia and I know I've sent a couple of people your way knowing that that's the kind of help that they need. So thank you for sharing your insight and your techniques. I for 01:00 a.m. Definitely interested in learning more about my nervous system because it can either be on my side or it could be sabotaging me and what I want to achieve. Thanks for being on the show.

Olivia James [00:41:02]:
Thank you.

Carla Miller [00:41:03]:
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Olivia. If you're not already following the podcast in Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen, be sure to set it to follow. There's a little cross in the top right hand corner of the app so that you don't miss future episodes. If you'd like to talk to me about one to one coaching or the upcoming be bolder confidence course or influence and impact women's leadership program, feel free to head over to my website and book a call or connect with me on LinkedIn and send a message there.