Carla Miller [00:00:02]:
Workplaces and meetings are not set up to get the best out of introverts. So it's no wonder that many people who identify as introverts can experience self doubt at work, even in leadership roles. Sarah Manley built a highly successful career in marketing as a deep introvert, but was growing tired of being always on and visible, and increasingly felt like she was in the wrong place. It ate at her confidence. Then she discovered Quiet, the book by Susan Cain, and she understood herself and her strengths fully for the first time. Sarah approached work with a new mindset and embraced being an introvert at work. In her book, the quiet catalyst, Sarah shares her insights, tools, and strategies to thriving as an introvert at work. Now, Sarah is an Amazon number one best selling author, career coach, mentor, and speaker, drawing on 2 decades of international corporate experience.

Carla Miller [00:00:56]:
As the founder of the Quiet Catalyst, she helps introverted professionals unlock their potential by offering tailored guidance for navigating corporate life with confidence and energy. And you'll find links to her socials and her website in the show notes. I loved my conversation with Sarah where we talked about how to network successfully as an introvert, how to navigate working with an extroverted manager, how to gather feedback that works for you as an introvert, and how to make feedback more useful. We also talk about why energy management is so important for introverts, and Sarah's tools for managing your energy effectively. And she shares some top tips for presenting as an introvert. Now you might be listening to this going, I am not an introvert. This is not relevant to me. I would say it really is.

Carla Miller [00:01:46]:
It will help you to understand your colleagues a lot more, and it will also give you some really practical things that you can do to be helpful to your more introverted colleagues. And if you are listening to this and thinking I am absolutely an introvert or I have some introverted tendencies, you are gonna find this a really fantastic episode. My name is Carla Miller, leadership coach, author, and trainer. And this is the influence and impact podcast for women leaders. Helping you confidently navigate the ups and downs of leadership and feel less alone on your journey as a leader. In fortnightly episodes, I share practical tools and insights from myself and my brilliant guests that will help you to succeed in your career. Now there's only about a week or so until or maybe a couple of weeks until my be bolder course runs again. This is my 4 week confidence and assertiveness course where we look at tackling imposter feelings and self doubt, mastering your mindset and owning your strengths, having courageous conversations, and speaking up in meetings.

Carla Miller [00:02:52]:
And there's actually quite a lot in there where we look at things from the perspective of people that are introverts, particularly when we're talking about the meetings side of things. This is the last time I'll be running be bolder. So whether it's something you want to do yourself or whether you're thinking that a member of your team would benefit from it, go over to my website carlamiller.co.uk and find out more about that there. We also have my influence and impact cohort coming up in May. This is my 3 month women's leadership program where we talk about all sorts of things to help you with leadership, self doubt, increasing your impact, and influencing. So, again, head over to my website for details of that. I am about to start my training for my great north run. So if you missed last week's episode, I turned 50.

Carla Miller [00:03:43]:
As last week's episode was coming out, I actually spent the day at a spa or the afternoon at a spa on my own with a view of the fells and Derwent water near Keswick, and there was snow on the fells. It was beautiful. As I record this tomorrow, I'm going to a spa in Windermere. I was never a spa person. Like, the idea of sitting still and doing nothing didn't really appeal. But having had a child, now I'm like, The idea of sitting still and doing all this nothing is so rare for me that, I am embracing spas, and there are some beautiful spas up here. And I just sit in a hot tub for a couple of hours with friends, basically. Anyway, one of the things I'm doing for my 50th is I will be running the Great North Run to raise money for a cure for diabetes, and there's a link to sponsor me if you're feeling generous in the show notes as well.

Carla Miller [00:04:34]:
Okay. That's all for me. Let's roll this episode, and I hope that you find it super helpful. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. I'm excited to have you here talking about being an introvert.

Sarah Manley [00:04:48]:
Thanks, Carly. Yeah. We're looking forward to it. Excited to get to talk about all things introvert today.

Carla Miller [00:04:53]:
Brilliant. Well, I'd love to start by hearing a little bit about your background and how you discovered that you were an introvert.

Sarah Manley [00:05:02]:
Yeah. So I had a 20 year corporate career in marketing for some big healthcare organizations. And about 18 months ago now, with one of the additional rounds of redundancies, it was my time to be honest. That point I was living up in Manchester trying to commute to Amsterdam. I had a team in Singapore. My closest colleague that I worked with actually was based in Australia, so it was some crazy stuff going on. And whilst I loved 80% of what I did, it was just enough. So I put my hand up and said, let's time out.

Sarah Manley [00:05:36]:
So at that point, I took a bit of a step out and decided, right, what do I wanna do now at the age of whatever I was, 41, 42? And, went on a bit of a journey to retrain as a coach, write my book, Quiet Catalyst, and it's been a big fun adventure, actually. So we can get a bit more into that later on maybe. But to answer your question about when did I discover I was an introvert? If I'm honest, it was a bit late in my career. I wish I'd known earlier. I had taken an opportunity to move with my employer to the Netherlands, and take on my first director role there. And I remember a very specific situation one day, being in a meeting room full of these fellow directors who'd all been handpicked like myself from countries to lead these new categories and everybody was talking, talking, talking. I couldn't get a word in each ways. I couldn't I didn't know how to participate in this kind of big loud bold environment at all and really went home thinking I think I'm in the wrong place.

Sarah Manley [00:06:40]:
I feel completely a square peg in a round hole. I should go home like back to the UK go home, I mean. And then 2 amazing things happened. 1 is, somebody in my team gifted me the book Quiet by Susan Cain. So it's a very well known book, amongst introverts. If people don't know it, please go and read it because, honestly, it was a chicken soup for my soul is the way I I talk about it, that suddenly somebody explained all of these things that I was experiencing and said, but that's just called introversion. It's not being weird or difficult or different or less than, but it's just the way your brain works. Oh, my god.

Sarah Manley [00:07:21]:
And then I started working with a coach as part of my leadership journey, and he really helped me see how being quieter, more reserved, more thoughtful in that noisy environment actually was a real superpower because it was sometimes a bit the missing bit of the jigsaw. So having had those experiences and then that moment and then the realizations, oh, well, this is okay then. I can do this. And I don't have to keep faking this extroverted thing that's really not me, but I can do this in my own way on my own terms.

Carla Miller [00:07:56]:
I love that story and particularly that reframing as a superpower. I often say the things we initially perceive to be our weaknesses can actually be our strengths. The things that make us different are really positive things. So how did you feel or show up differently once you knew this about yourself?

Sarah Manley [00:08:16]:
Yeah. It was just about being more relaxed into it. So something I really realized after the fact, and I see with the clients I work with now, is often physically we end up very tense, like gripping our stomach, gripping shoulders, jaw is always a key one. You end up with headaches, neck aches, and stuff because you're sort of clenching to be like, oh, what's gonna come next? What's gonna happen next? What am I gonna have to respond to off the cuff? What am I gonna have to go and present? What is this person gonna give me as some feedback that's ouch and scarring? So I felt a lot more relaxed. I had to work hard on that, I'll be honest. I had to work hard to let it let it be, let it go, but also a stronger confidence in myself that actually I had been chosen to do that role for a reason and it was a good thing that I wasn't the same as everybody else. So keeping this more positive mindset, stronger awareness of these really are strengths and it's not only you know, sometimes when we do strengths work, I've found people saying things like if it's not really a strength, no it is. So things like, you know, really strong listening skills that are absolutely a superpower of most introverts.

Sarah Manley [00:09:31]:
I've had people say but is that really a strength? Is that really something that's highly valued? Yes, it is. And here's how you can unlock that and use that. So it's identifying those strengths but also truly believing that they are exactly the the elements of the cake that you can put together to produce something really amazing. It takes work. It it takes work, but it really helped unlock it for me.

Carla Miller [00:09:56]:
I love that. And we're gonna dive into a couple of chapters of your book. But do you want to tell us a little bit about what you were trying to achieve by writing your book?

Sarah Manley [00:10:04]:
Yeah. Do you know when I first started writing it, I had no idea it was going to be a book. I started writing just some ideas of what I would have loved to have read 10, 15, even 20 years ago starting out my career. The first working title was my big sister at work. That was a bit the idea, the sentiment behind I wish I'd had the older role model or mentor of some kind that could have told me all these secrets, and I didn't have to learn it for myself. So as the book evolved, it became about sharing a little bit of my experience. But it's not to say that my experience is the way or the right way, copy paste because that's completely not true. But sharing a bit of my experience and vulnerability to say you can be a successful senior leader just by being yourself.

Sarah Manley [00:10:56]:
It's okay to be an intro. It's okay to be you. And then sharing some self coaching exercises, some hints, some tips to help people on their journey. Very overused word, but I don't have a better one. Help people on their journey through, I'm in the wrong place. This is awful. I need to get out of here to, I'm actually pretty cool and amazing to, wow, I'm flying. That's a bit the the journey I'm helping people to go on.

Carla Miller [00:11:25]:
That's a fantastic journey. And I think so many of us as coaches, as authors, are trying to help people find an easier way through the stuff that we found really hard. It's, like, kind of our way of kind of reaching back either to the old version of us or the people coming up behind us and saying, look, it doesn't have to be this hard. It doesn't have to cause this much self doubt and this much trauma. So well, fantastic work writing a book so quickly. And there's so much in there as well. There's so many practical exercises. So for anyone listening who's been thinking, I think I am an introvert, and I'm really not sure how to work with that.

Carla Miller [00:12:03]:
You could obviously work with Sarah directly, but the book is also a fantastic start towards doing that. Now there's so much to cover when it comes to being an introvert, and we've done a an episode on this before. So the areas I really wanted to focus on together were building your confidence as an introvert and managing your energy, and then looking at some of the specific situations that introverts find really challenging. Now if you're listening to this episode and you're not or don't identify as introverted, First of all, keep listening because lots of the things you're gonna hear are also relevant to those of us who are ambiverts or extroverts. Also, you're gonna have people in your team and colleagues that you work with who have introvert tendencies. And I think that understanding and knowledge of how you can help them will be super helpful. Okay. Now there were some really interesting points within your book about how we can use feedback to build our confidence.

Carla Miller [00:13:02]:
Because often, getting feedback can knock our confidence, can't it? Could you speak to that a little bit, please?

Sarah Manley [00:13:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I get very passionate about feedback, so hold me back if you need to. Because so often, we're given feedback that's well intended but often says more about the person giving it than it does about the person receiving it. And we as individuals need to be in control of that Because we often say, I'm I'm asking for feedback, but then we open that door so wide, we're gonna get anything and everything thrown back at us. That's not what we want when we're trying to build confidence because we we already know the things that will come back as introverts. Right? We're gonna get you to speak up more, you need to be louder, you need to be more assertive, you need to be bolder, you need to take the lead more, you need to be more visible, more, more, more, all these more things except for being more yourself.

Sarah Manley [00:13:59]:
And it's awful to be on the receiving end of that because very often it says you need to be more like the giver of the feedback, but I'm not gonna tell you how because it's so obvious to them that they don't realize they need to explain how to be more visible, how to be louder in meetings. So the first thing I talk to people about is let's be intentional with asking for feedback. So who are you going to ask? What are you going to ask for? So think about who are some of your big supporters that actually really know you. I often get people to map out a stakeholder map, a stakeholder network. So yourself in the middle. Who are the some of the people who are influential in your space? Whatever that means. You're going for promotion. Who can influence that? You are wanting to achieve certain goals.

Sarah Manley [00:14:47]:
Who can support that? Okay. So you map them out. What kind of relationships do you have with them? Quite strong relationships, weaker relationships, no real relationship yet? And then think about how can you start to reach out for them for feedback. What questions do you want to ask? Don't just say please give me some feedback because instead you get everything under the sun thrown at you. Not nice, not helpful. But ask things like and and and weight it towards the positive. That's really important. So ask things like, please can you give me 3 things you think I do really well? What do you see that are really my strengths? Three things I do really well.

Sarah Manley [00:15:25]:
If I could change one thing, what would it be? One thing. So you've already weighted it right? And the last thing that I think is a super nice piece is if you could give me one piece of advice, what would it be? When that all comes back, I'm a big believer and don't just read it yourself and like file it away, but find whether it's your line manager, a coach, a confidant of some kind and talk it through. Talk it through and ask yourself what's important. So out of this, what's important for me right now and what do I want to prioritize? Often when we're given feedback, it can feel quite cutting. Even those positive ones will sometimes think more, but actually, if I read that a different way, maybe something else. So if you can, get the people giving feedback to to sit down with you for 10 minutes and verbalize it as well. So it's not just written, but there's some verbal feedback. You can have a small conversation.

Sarah Manley [00:16:21]:
Prioritize it and filter it. My gosh. Filter that feedback. Because if you ask 5 people, you're gonna get my maths isn't quick enough, but let's say, like, 25 bits of feedback from those questions. You're gonna have to filter. What's really important to me right now? What do I want to throw away and get rid of? What do I really want to work on? So it's about regaining control of the whole feedback piece rather than, I don't know, give me feedback. And then we end up in a much more, yeah, vulnerable downward spiraling kind of space.

Carla Miller [00:16:55]:
So many fantastic tips in there. And I think that filtering bit is really key, isn't it? Because like you say, it does often say more about that person giving the feedback than it says about you. And I I find the same as you. So many people who are introverted have managers who are trying to shape them into versions of themselves rather than embracing their actual strengths.

Sarah Manley [00:17:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I I think it's not with bad intention. You know, that that manager has got to their position by being themselves, by being the extrovert itself, and they see that as the way of being successful. And that's why also and, you know, as you say, there are plenty of things that I talk about that are helpful for extroverts as well. Those feedback tips, also very helpful for extroverts, but also seeing introversion from the inside rather than an extrovert looking from an outside, like trying to figure out what is this quieter reserved person? What's what's cooking? Are they just disengaged? Are they not interested? Are they tired? What's going on? And actually starting to realize a bit more the inner workings. Once you have that awareness and understanding, then you can start to work together to help move forwards.

Carla Miller [00:18:06]:
Brilliant. And I also wanted to talk about managing your energy as an introvert. Now how does energy management and being an introvert fit together? Why is it so important?

Sarah Manley [00:18:17]:
Introverts and extroverts respond quite differently to busy noisy environments, and it's down to a chemical hormone called dopamine. So when we're in these high stimulating environments like the office, like being at work, even working from home, you know, there's days of zoom calls back to back, busy meetings, dopamine is released in the brain. And extroverts are far less influenced and impacted by dopamine. And actually they seek more of it. So more content, more conversation, more stimulation, more more more. Introverts with the same experience are far more impacted and this is why we feel much more quickly drained. So whilst extroverts in the office, you'll see being more involved, more coffee conversations between the meetings, etcetera, and the the introverts want to retreat to recharge. So I you would see me squirreling off after the meeting to go and find a quiet corner to let me digest that.

Sarah Manley [00:19:23]:
And before I really understood what was going on, I thought, gosh. Why can everybody else keep going seemingly? And I am done. Like, I don't wanna pass the time of day with somebody at the water cooler. Like, I'm done. Yeah. So once you once you understand a bit of this and you understand you just need that time to retreat to recharge, you can start to plan that in your day more effectively. So people often come to me to start working and say, do you know, I'm just I'm just done. I'm exhausted.

Sarah Manley [00:19:52]:
I get home every day, nose diving on the sofa, doing my best with my family and friends, and oh my gosh. The weekend is coming and all I wanna do is close the door and not talk to a soul, but I've gotta keep going because I've got all this other stuff happening. How am I gonna do this? I think I'm gonna have to take a step down at work or change jobs because I can't handle this. And I find that really sad actually because effectively what's happening is we're giving all of ourselves to work and having nothing left for ourselves and for our friends and for our family and things we love to do. So I work with people, and I still work with myself in my new entrepreneurial role to proactively plan energy and think about when you've got stuff coming up, especially if it's big stuff, you know, big networking event, big presentation, whatever it might be. How do I wanna show up? So like we were chatting before the podcast, you know, if you're coming to a podcast and you wanna have some good energy and so on, right, don't leave that to chance. When we're preparing for things, we so often think about preparing the content and we forget to prepare ourselves and our own energy. So we chunk it up into what do I need to do before, what do I do during, and what do I do after.

Sarah Manley [00:21:14]:
And this helps us to avoid the nosedive at the end because we think about battery. Instead of letting it deplete down, like, 20%, 10%, we're doing little boosters all through the day to try and keep it topped up. So, I'm a big fan of micro breaks or micro moments of these energy boosts. So, you know, if you have 10 minutes, even 5 minutes between meetings, we know what it's like sometimes back to back Zoom calls and you're zipping to the toilet and doing this and this. What how can you take 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes for yourself to boost? And different things will work for different people. So, you know, for me, I like to do a walk. I like to do a little dance break. All those sorts of things that just stir the pot.

Sarah Manley [00:22:01]:
That's the analogy I have to use. How do I stir the energy pot? Because if I don't, my energy can really slump. It's like a heavy energy that that feels slow and lethargic. So I need to stir the pot to boost it back up again. So I get people to make a bit of a diary or a calendar of through my week. When do I notice my energy is boosted? What was happening? Who am I with? What was going on? When do I feel my energy is being depleted? The same. Who was I with? What was happening? And be specific, Not just, oh, I was in another meeting. But specifically, were there any particular people, let's be honest, who are the energy vampires that maybe are difficult? Okay.

Sarah Manley [00:22:42]:
I'm going to a meeting again with them next week. It's an all day workshop. How am I gonna plan my energy before, during, and after to take care of myself, show up as I wish to, and also have that energy left for myself, my friends, my family when I go home and want to enjoy the weekend.

Carla Miller [00:23:02]:
I think that energy planning is such a fantastic idea of, I need to look at my week when I come back after Christmas and think about the energy planning side of things. That makes sense. I also love a little dance break before a meeting to energize myself. Wonderful. Now there are a few situations, scenarios where it can be particularly challenging being an introvert, and we're gonna dive into some of your advice around that. Now the first one, and I know it's not just introverts that find this challenging, but the dreaded networking. What are your top tips for networking as an introvert?

Sarah Manley [00:23:43]:
Gosh. Yeah. As you say, so many people dislike this. I never realized how many people dislike it. It's one of those things that you have to reframe because I used to think, gosh, everyone else is fine, and it's just me that feels really awkward, and it's not true. So first of all, I I try not use the word networking because it really brings the EBGBs out in people. I think of it really as a conversation with a purpose. So plan a bit your goals.

Sarah Manley [00:24:11]:
Why are you going there? And if you don't have a good reason, then don't go. Like choose where to invest your energy. And if you really don't have a good reason, then don't do it. Let's assume you do have a good reason. You know, you want to meet 5 new people, 3 new people, even one new person is a good goal. Make it realistic for you as you're getting started with this. What do you want to talk to them about? Why would you want to spend time with them, etcetera? So make a bit of a concrete goal. I also like to make a time bound goal, and that will depend on my energy flow.

Sarah Manley [00:24:47]:
So, you know, if I'm having a week where actually I've been I'm a bit peopled out and that happens sometimes. I'm really peopled out, can't do any more conversation. Then say I'm gonna go for 15 minutes. I'm gonna go 15 minutes. At the end of 15 minutes, I'm gonna take one of my little micro breaks off to the bathroom, outside, whatever you need to do. I'm gonna check-in with myself. Right? Have I achieved my goal? How is it going? How am I feeling? And the question I ask myself a lot, what is the best thing I can do for myself right now? And that might be to go home. It might be to go and stir the pot in some way.

Sarah Manley [00:25:25]:
Well, I don't know, going to the gym, whatever you enjoy doing. Or it might be going back in because you've done your one, you achieved it, but you feel like you can do 2. But just taking that break away helps you step out from all the buzz for a while and be honest with yourself that you don't feel stuck in there like, oh, I have to because everybody else seems to be. Those sorts of things. Yeah. That that really helped me a lot. I have to say that you don't have to be there for hours. Just go in, do your thing, and leave.

Carla Miller [00:25:58]:
I love that idea. And as an introvert, do you find yourself sometimes stuck thinking what am I supposed to be talking about? How do I start this conversation?

Sarah Manley [00:26:08]:
Yeah. Definitely. It's something it's like a muscle that I think you can learn to build. The more you do it, the easier it gets. Like like most things in life, generally, introverts don't like small talk. So finding those first few bits of ping pong conversation is quite tricky sometimes. When I meet with fellow introverts, and we're talking about introversion, so fellow introvert writers or different things, we go straight in. Like, we're having the deepest conversation you can imagine in about 2 minutes, and that's awesome.

Sarah Manley [00:26:41]:
Love that. But when we're talking with people of an opposite type or more different to us or, you know, we need more time to before we get into that. I kind of reframe it as, you know, small talk is just the warm up before the big talk. And we have to build that trust and rapport with some people before they're ready to go into that big talk, and that's also okay. So I've learned to have a few things up my sleeve, that I've tried over time. Some things work for me. Different things will work for other people. Just the basics about have you traveled far? Oh, I think I've been to Nottingham once before.

Sarah Manley [00:27:19]:
How interesting or, you know, just something. It doesn't need to be very much. I'm always a big fan of fan of name tags in networking because at least you can remember the person's name. I'm never really good at that. And also, you know, their company names, you can start to ask some questions about what they do, those sorts of things. Just find anything of common interest. And again, like we were saying before, lean on your strengths. So you might not be the fastest talker in the room or the loudest talker in the room, but you will be one of the best listeners.

Sarah Manley [00:27:51]:
So use that to get curious and treat it as a curious conversation to think about what's interesting, what connection do we have, what could be, you know and coming back to what we said at the start of this little part, everybody is not enjoying walking into a room of networking. So don't panic. It's okay. Like, relax into it because the other person will be grateful that you're talking to them, to be honest. So just just go with it. Just let it go. Go with it. Don't put so much pressure on yourself.

Sarah Manley [00:28:22]:
You know, this is not the Networking Olympics. It's okay.

Carla Miller [00:28:26]:
Fantastic. Now another area is presenting, and I'm guessing also the the bit afterwards where you're on the spot and there's q and a going on. Because as I I'm not an introvert. I think I'm an ambivert, but my brain thinks very quickly. So I love a q and a more than I love the pressure of prepared questions that I then feel I have to get perfect. But for introverts, I imagine it's the opposite. You're being put on the spot and you're thinking, I really wanna think through a solid answer to that.

Sarah Manley [00:28:55]:
So, it depends a bit on on presenting and q and a, I think, with regards to if it's a topic that you're really an expert on versus if it's something that you kinda know a bit about but not really. Generally, I'm gonna start to generalise a bit here. There'll be plenty of introverts going up, some time like me, which is fine. But generally, introverts prefer, you know, deep expertise. It's often why we find deep expert roles being led by introverts. And then if you're presenting on one of these deep topics, actually, you can feel your most confident self. And when you get the q and a, yeah, bring it on. Like, what do you wanna ask me? That's fine.

Sarah Manley [00:29:36]:
The challenge is to be able to summarize the answer in a way that doesn't go 10 chapters deep, but gives an answer that's good for the audience. That's a bit the the trick there, I think. If they were presenting on something that's less certain or you've had to prepare in a very hurried way, you didn't have much notice. That can shape confidence because I found and I find with many of my clients, we have at least 3 dialogues going on in our head as we're presenting. So we're thinking about what am I saying? We're thinking about how is this landing and you start to read the room of, like, what are people's eyes doing? Somebody's on their phone. Like, what are they thinking? What's going on? And you're already thinking about all the holes that you would pick in your presentation if you were hearing this. So by the time we get to the q and a, we're already thinking, oh my gosh, they're gonna pick this apart. Very often that's not the case because the audience is still not as expert as you are having done that bit of preparation.

Sarah Manley [00:30:35]:
But what I like to do, myself but also people I work with when it comes to q and a's by yourself, some time. And use your natural preference to think before speaking to give yourself that buffer. So it's completely fine that you pause, you breathe, you signal that, you know, you're thinking, you're digesting, you're about to have seen your your eyes, where you're looking with your hand gestures, etcetera. People can hear you. It's a great question. Probably have 2 points I'd like to answer that with. You've bought yourself 10 seconds. The audience hasn't noticed.

Sarah Manley [00:31:21]:
They just see a thoughtful person about to give a very lovely answer. And then the second thing I'd say is to to give give yourself permission just to start saying it. What I mean by that is often introverts will say, I much prefer to give a written answer because it never sounds as good out loud as it does in my head. I think, well, of course. I mean, you're the way you're thinking is like this galaxy of different constellations whizzing and whirring and beautiful things all spinning around in there. But you can only say one linear sentence. So, of course, it doesn't sound as good out loud as it does in your head, but I can tell you to our audience, it sounds brilliant. And in speech, of course, we don't speak as we write.

Sarah Manley [00:32:05]:
I mean, if we transcribe this interview, we're like, gosh, does this make great sense? I'm not sure. You would rewrite it. So just start speaking it and start saying it. And like with so many of these things, it's practice. So the more you can practice in a safe space where you've got allies, supporters, people cheering you on in the room before you have to go do the bigger stuff where, yeah, there might be some characters in there that wanna ask you questions to catch you out. Good luck. Go for it. Practice in those safe spaces as much as you can.

Carla Miller [00:32:37]:
Some fantastic insights in there as well. I love that description of your brain. All these different galaxies, I'm like, I don't know that I have all those galaxies in my brain. I think I've just got the one going around. That's the joy of not being an introvert. To think of it's much simpler up in there. Now the find like I said, so much in the book, but one of the things that caught my eye was there's a little section on managing an extroverted boss or manager. Why why did that merit a section in the book? What are the challenges around that, and what do you suggest people can do in that situation?

Sarah Manley [00:33:13]:
It's something I got asked about a lot. As I was writing the book, I was asking previous colleagues, people that I was starting to work with in coaching, what are some of the big things that you want me to talk about and and focus on that you struggle with? And this is one that came up time and time again because whereas for things like presenting, networking, there's a lot of not so much on this one. So, the I think why it can be such a struggle, it's not always the case. So it depends, you know, what is the relationship and rapport from the beginning. But it's often because the extroverted boss will set the tone, set the rhythm, set the drumbeat, and then your introverted direct rapport is trying to keep pace, is trying to follow, is trying to keep up, is trying to please. And that's not going to work. We end up with a much faster pace, much more direct directive kind of approach that the quieter person is probably thinking gosh, I just need more time to think. I just need more space, more time to put this together in a more, thoughtful, more thorough way.

Sarah Manley [00:34:26]:
So how can we start to navigate this? I think it's just about having a conversation. It can be really hard because if you're quite a junior in the organisation coming in, you've got this boss who's been there a good number of years. They're doing their thing their way. Who am I to kind of question or whatever? But I think it's that sort of what is your boss there for? Your boss isn't there just to make sure that department delivers. Your boss is there to make sure that you as a team member can can fully operate at your best. So I think with that in mind, it's about having the conversation with your line manager to say, here are the things that I need to operate at my best, to bring my best self to work, to do my best work. That's quite brave. That's quite a brave conversation to have.

Sarah Manley [00:35:19]:
But the impact of that can be enormous because suddenly you have a boss who goes, oh, I didn't realize. Didn't realize that you were needing those things. I don't need that. I need this. I need more stimulation, more workshops, more team discussions. I thought when you were quiet in the meeting that something was wrong. Maybe you had something outside of work or but now you've told me that you need some more time to reflect in the conversation. How can I invite you in? Or how can I give you that space? It's much nicer conversation to have.

Sarah Manley [00:35:54]:
So I think just starting the conversation is really important. And it's also why extroverts that have read the book say, no, I learned a lot because now as the extroverted leader, I can think about what do the introverts in my team need to help them step forward with their key points, build that safety, to, share their voice in a meeting, whatever it might be, right through to, you know, things like team days. So often it's about the collaboration, the fun, the everything else. And, you know, if you think about it, about half the population are introverts. So theoretically, half of the group will be going, oh my gosh. Can we not just have half an hour to decompress? So, you know, really getting everybody involved in designing those sorts of events is is really key, It all starts with that conversation.

Carla Miller [00:36:50]:
Fantastic. Now we've covered lots of different things, and I know there's a lot more in the book. I'd like to finish by just asking what's one thing that you wish that people that weren't introverts knew about their introverted colleague? Maybe that's something they can do or just a bit of insight. What do you think is the most important thing or one of the most important things for them to know?

Sarah Manley [00:37:12]:
I think picking picking one from top of mind, and I I always and these sorts of questions, This is probably a tip from before as well. I always think I've got an answer for now, but if you if I can come back to you tomorrow, I have an even better answer, but I'll give you my answer for now. My answer for now would be about making space. What I mean by that is so often in team dynamics, whether that be meetings, can also be message show, all sorts of things, there's not enough time and space sometimes for those more reflective people to participate. Conversations will keep going, keep going towards making a decision or reaching a point of agreement. Done. Move on to the next topic. But I invite people to create a bit of space by saying, well, here is my point.

Sarah Manley [00:38:00]:
What do you think? And actually inviting people in to contribute. This is not a competition of who can talk the most, who can talk the loudest, who can say the most things, But just make that space be self aware that if you are dominating the room with your voice, it means you're not being inclusive. It means you're missing out on some golden nuggets from some people who are bubbling away in their brains and thinking, but then need that door to be open to say, yeah. I've got something I'd like to share, actually. And it's this. Without doing that, yeah, you end up very often, I think, with team conversations, team decisions that go in a very one particular way because it's the same voices that tend to shape those. So trying to shape it in a more balanced way by inviting people in.

Carla Miller [00:38:59]:
Making space. That just makes me feel spacious in itself, anyway. Thank you so much. Now if people want to know more about you, where can we send them, or what would you like someone to do having listened to this interview and feeling super inspired?

Sarah Manley [00:39:13]:
Yeah. So I'm feeling inspired. So I have a a weekly newsletter that goes out, so you can sign up to this on my website, which is the quiet catalyst.com. You'll find about my other services on there as well. And I also do regular LinkedIn content posts, sort of hints and tips and ideas, as well. So you'll find me as there as Sarah Manley t q c.

Carla Miller [00:39:35]:
I really enjoy your content on LinkedIn, so I definitely encourage people to go and follow you there. Thank you so much. The book's a fantastic resource for people in the workplace, and you've just been a brilliant guest. I've loved your insights and your thoughtfulness. So thanks very much, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Sarah Manley [00:39:52]:
Great. Thanks so much, Carla. Really enjoyed it.