Carla Miller 00:00
Welcome to the influence and impact podcast for female leaders.

My name is Carla Miller, and I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self-doubt, become brilliant at influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. We'll be talking about all the different topics that affect you, as a woman leading today. Think of it as personal development meets professional development. And I want to become the leadership BFF. You didn't know you were missing until now.

Carla Miller 00:41
Hi, welcome to the influence and impact podcast. And because it's the summer holidays, in this episode, I am bringing you a replay of episode 28. Now this was way back in December 2020. So you probably didn't listen to it. But even if you did, it's a really good one. So it's a great refresher for you. It's with guest Stephanie sword Williams. Now, for those of you that are listening in the school holidays and have small people around with you, you might want to use your headphones for this one, because the title of her book does have a swear word in it and not one, you'd really want your children running around shouting loudly.

So that's just a heads up for you on that it's a fantastic episode, you're going to really enjoy it. In other news, we're just gearing up for the book launch here. So we the Kindle is going to be launched the Kindle edition of closing the influence gap, a practical guide for women leaders who want to be heard, and get used to saying that the Kindle edition is being launched for just 99 P for one day only on Monday, the 19th of September, and then the paperback edition will be out the next day on Tuesday, the 20th of September, I would be a hugely, hugely grateful if you could support the launch of the book help it to hit bestseller status by buying it for 99 P that day and telling everyone about it. If you'd like to do that sign up at Carla Miller training.com forward slash launch squad, which just means you'll get a reminder email and everything you need to be able to access that link and also to share it with others super easily on social media.
I would be so so happy if some of my podcast listeners joined the launch squad, and helped me to get this out to as many women as possible. Right. I hope you're enjoying your summer, and I will roll this old episode for you. How are you doing today, Stef?

Stef Williams 02:55
Yes, I'm really good. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I'm really excited to chat to you.

Carla Miller 03:00
Well, thank you because I read your book. And we're going to hear all about your book. And I just read it on why people need to hear this. All the women that I work with need this on their bookshelf. So I was like, let's get you on, pick your brains and find out more about you. So how did you come to write a book called fat being humble, which is, by the way, a very cool title for a book.

Stef Williams 03:23
So for anyone that doesn't already know about foot being humble, it originally started as community events. And that was basically my goal. I was going to a lot of industry events. And I wasn't really seeing a huge amount of representation on panels or seeing a lot of males over the age of 50 business owners and I was just moved down from the north. I was 25. I was wanting to see people my age doing cool things. And I don't know about you, but I find going to events where you literally just hear about other people's careers just a bit repetitive. And very often, you come away and still go, Well, what do I do with that information that's not necessarily helped me, it's great to hear about their journey.

So I always set out that I was going to run events because it's what I love doing. I wanted to do it outside of my day job and it wasn't something I always got to do. But I knew I enjoyed it. So for me, the goal was just to bring, you know, build a community, bring people together and ultimately educate people on self promotion. So that's why I do a lot of workshop based content. And within like, I'd say like two weeks of starting football, or maybe the launch week, I wrote an article saying why I launched a platform called foot being humble. And it just obviously on LinkedIn very clickbait title. I wouldn't say it went viral, but lots of people looked at, you know, put no paid money behind it. And like five and a half 1000 people around the world read it. Got messages from people.

I got messages from someone in the White House Communications Agency saying they'd love me to come do a talk one day and I was like, oh my god, this is crazy. Like, I've not written event, I have not planned an event or not written the book, I've not done anything really. But obviously the name itself connected with a lot of people. And off the back of that. I was asked to go on BBC, world news. And I was interviewed by the times, but I was also basically about three or four publishers and agents got in contact with me. And sorry, this is a really long-winded answer, but it helps to explain the story. And I basically was just like, I'm not a writer. No, absolutely not. No, I'm fine. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for the offer. But not not for me. Definitely not right now. Because I not even running event, I didn't even know what it was going to be or how people were going to respond to it. And then once I started running the events, and they were they weren't really well. I was hearing case studies and really great reports back that what I was sharing was really useful and helping people.

So I very nervously got back in contact with a few agents and just sort of said, Okay, if I was to do this, how would How would it happen? And I had to write a proposal about why I deserve to write a book, which was hard when you make imposter syndrome around that. And I had the right to sample chapters. And I remember writing it just before Christmas, or just after Christmas, sending off and then going on a two week holiday to Thailand, and basically just sitting looking at my phone the entire time waiting for a message to come in. See if we're gonna get any offers. And then yeah, we got four or five offers in the end, and it went to an auction bidding process.

And then yeah, I got the book deal. May 2019. So yeah, very well in process. But I the reason I tell that story is because I think what's amazing is, this was never an intention or a goal, or you know, even a dream of mine. Not a serious one anyway, you know, we often say like, oh, it'd be wouldn't it be great to write a book, but you never really think it could happen? So it's been a real whirlwind since that since it all started. But I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to write write the book, even if I do still have massive impostor syndrome around it.

Carla Miller 07:15
Even though everyone's giving you the rave reviews of it, and how did you come up with a title? It's pretty bold title.

Stef Williams 07:22
So I people ask me this a lot. And I always make a joke that I think your personal brands or the brand's you create are an extension of your personality. And that's not to say that I run around telling people to fuck being humble or swear at them with motivational quotes. But I do think fuck being humble is an expression of me in the sense that I'm quite like a tough love. Come on, get on with it, do it. Let's go. I'm not someone that's going to hold your hand, I will absolutely help you through things. And I'll give you as much advice as possible. I'm really bad at saying no to giving helps people I'm I like love supporting people.

But one of the things that I probably do the most is encourage and empower people in my friendship group so that alone professionally, it's just something that I do I get really excited about ideas and I Buzz off, empowering people, I get a real excitement in that. And I think, you know, I see, potentially because I worked in advertising, I understood the importance of pitching, selling, promoting. I also had a dad that could basically turn my work experience of being like a Saturday girl and a shoe shop into like the start of my entrepreneurial career like he was brilliant at bigging me up from a very young age. But obviously, you know, keeping me keeping me grounded, but teaching me the value of not downplaying your achievements. And I think particularly in the UK, we are very good at downplaying our achievements are very good at being self-deprecating. And I suppose I just tapped into the insight that the biggest thing that stops us from self-promoting is that the fear that we don't look humble enough if we do it, and actually I just think that's bullshit. And I think we need to push past that and recognise that you can still be humble and self-promo. And when you are letting yourself be when you are being too modest that's when you stop yourself from effectively telling your story and putting yourself in the right situations in the right room.

So I suppose I sort of explained to people I don't want foot being humble I don't expect it to be a badge or a poster that you look at every single day I or something that you know, you brand all of your stationery with or anything like that. For me, it's a mindset, it's, it's you need to adopt. Fuck being humble as a mindset to stop you from being self deprecating or to stop you from belittling yourself or talking about yourself in a negative way because we For some reason, as a society, I think it's cooler to be self deprecating than we do to hype ourselves up. So my goal is really to just encourage people to not do that, and to challenge that way of thinking.

Carla Miller 10:13
And so I work mainly with women. And I see a lot of aversion to self promotion. In fact, self promotion is kind of seen as a bit of a dirty word or phrase a bit like talking about money. It's one of those things you just don't really do. Why is that?

Stef Williams 10:31
Exactly. I think you've just hit on it. It's because we don't really do it, we are scared of the things that we don't do. And that is, you know, whether it's public speaking, whether it's jumping out of a plane, you know, the things that we don't regularly get exposed to, or we don't have to do we avoid massively. And I actually think a big thing. I think, as I said, people think it's cooler to say, oh, self promotion, why would you ever do that, than to actually see the benefits of it? I think it's a conditioning thing. I think there's something. There's this stigma attached to the word self promotion. And that's why when I start all of my events, I explain what self promotion means. So self just means I am promotion is just an activity that supports an aim or a goal. So how that has built a reputation for being arrogant or embarrassing or self indulgent, I don't know why the best example I give is, when you look at some of the biggest world brands in the world, like IKEA, or Nike or Adidas, you don't call them arrogant, because they advertise to us every single day. So why is there a difference when it comes to the individual?

And, and I suppose because my experience of working in advertising and constantly being exposed to selling and storytelling, and you know, the way that brands are constantly trying you trying to get you to engage with them. I just ask a lot of people that I speak to, why is the individual story any different? Why do we feel differently towards that? And for a lot of people, it's just, you know, I make the joke in my book that for years, I said, I didn't like sparkling water, and hummus and chickpeas, because my dad said he didn't like it. So I'd be like, oh, no awful, I don't like that I'd never tried it, I'd made the decision based on my dad. And I think we do that if we can do that just with the loved ones around us. If you have your parents say no to self promotion, if your friends say no self promotion, then you're gonna say no to that, and you're probably unlikely to adopt it or even try it. Because for a lot of people, it's not, it's not necessarily forced upon them to do. And it's something that I think people massively regret not starting sooner. I can't tell you how many people have said, god, I wish that I've had this advice 11 years ago, or 20 years ago. And I think for a lot of people, it's this fear of the unknown. It's not knowing enough about the positive results that can happen.

And, and also, obviously, very obviously, just that people are scared of what other people are gonna say, that's probably the biggest one. That's the biggest issue I face a lot with people is like, but what but what if someone says this? And, again, that's a lot about courage, having faith and self belief in yourself that that's okay. It's okay. Everyone might not love you. And that's all right.

Carla Miller 13:28
Yeah, it's that fear of being judged, isn't it? And judged is not good enough. I think the other thing I used to find when I struggled with it was Who am I to take up that much space in the room? And would that be taking space away from other people, I felt very much like I should stay within myself, box and not impose myself on other people. And now I realised that was just holding back everything that I had to give, because I was just too scared basically.

Stef Williams 13:57
Definitely. And I like I spoke to him recently, and they said, they really want him to become a blogger. But to be honest, there's no point because there's so many bloggers out there, so I'd never be able to cut through. And I kind of joked with her and I said, well, then how will we ever have any new bloggers in the world? Like, if we believe that if we believe that there, is there already too much brilliant competition out there? Or who am I to take up that space? Why not you is the question. I always say it's like, why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't you share your opinion, it's not that yours is the only opinion it's that you're one of many, but that doesn't mean that you're wrong to share it and it doesn't mean that everybody's just going to bow down to you and you're going to be the only person that they listen to and even the idea of the fact that you are just one of many creators in the world coming up with ideas and I always say to people as well like when you post something on Instagram, for example, if you follow 2000 accounts in a day you'll probably see 50 images, you won't see all of the people, you follow his content.

So, the same goes for when you put your own content out there, not everybody's going to see it, it's not going to be your entire phonebook, calling you up, or every connection you've ever had going, I can't believe you just done that. And that's what we have to, you know, push ourselves out of the mindset. And I coined this phrase false, the fear of sounding stupid. And this is something very much, you know, hops into the imposter syndrome mindset and this feeling that if I say this about myself, I will look stupid, and other people will question me or challenge me. But you control the narrative of the story you want to tell about yourself.

So it's up to you to own that view, to project that in the way that you want sci fi to use the language about you set yourself that feels representative, no one else can do that for you, you have to do it. And if you decide that you really want to be somebody who is a thought leader in feminism tomorrow, then you go do that. And you go create that space for yourself. It's not for other people to dictate how you are meant to be seen.

Carla Miller 16:11
Yeah, I love that. And in your book, you talked about the fear of sounding stupid, versus the fear of being generic. And there's a sentence where you say you're probably doing everything you can not to stand out. And that just rang so true for an older version, a previous version of me that I absolutely was, the last thing I wanted to do was to stand out, because perhaps it didn't feel safe. Whilst now it's like, how do I stand out? I absolutely want to. But I suspect I'm not alone in that.

Stef Williams 16:40
No, absolutely not. And I think it's important to say that you don't actually standing out doesn't mean, going into the middle of London, you know, wearing a provocative outfit and going everybody hire me like that. That's not necessarily what standing out means. But it's this idea. When I when I talk about that it's about making people assess when you say you're doing everything you possibly can, are you really like, are you actually doing working as hard as you could be? Or are you thinking in a different way? Or is it because everyone else is doing an IG TV series? Do you think you need to do that? Like, it's it's about us not slipping into the patterns that other people have? Or that have already been set out for us? Because we think that's the only way to stand out or that's all that well, I'm doing what everyone else is doing? Well, that could be exactly what is wrong, and particularly in the UK is, if everybody else isn't self promoting, then you're absolutely not going to stand out if you're not doing it.

So, I think it is just that question of having check ins with yourself and saying, how far can I push myself. And there's a really good book where all of the books in the do series and there's like do improvise, do disrupt, do pivot there's, there's lots of great ones. And I will read the one about branding and changing directions. And something that really stood out to me in the summer as I was thinking about going in one direction, because that's where all my competitors were going and it made sense. And I listened to this audio book. And they said like, when everybody is zigging how us arguing and it's so obvious, and it's such a, you know, well known phrase, but I think it's really important for you to kind of have that on a post it somewhere and just remind yourself, actually, if everybody else is going in that way, is it right for you to follow? Or do you need to create your own space. And as I said at the start, it's not about you having to be really provocative or pokey or disruptive, in a in as you know, really controversial way. It's just about you being tactical and strategic.

Carla Miller 18:49
Yeah, and being authentic as well like bringing who you really are out in the open a bit more rather than hiding it. One of the so I work mainly with women within the workplace. And one of the things I helped them to define as their personal leadership brand, I hate the term sounds really jargony. But who do you want to be as a leader and get really intentional about how you want to be seen by others? So if you're looking to be promoted, or you're looking to influence more effectively, how do you want people to be describing you when you're not in the room? How do you think people could go about doing some of that self-promotion within the workplace?

Stef Williams 19:30
So, probably one of the things that I say about the workplace self promotion is you always have to consider a few variations. So what is it you're trying to achieve? So what is the goal? Are you trying to get a promotion? Are you trying to get more responsibility? Are you trying to get a pay rise like what what is the end goal? What are you trying to focus on? And then also considering what's currently within your reach or your remit? And then what's potentially not and you have to be conscious of, you know, treading on people's toes, you have to be conscious of not undermining bosses or colleagues. But there are really simple ways that you can self promote in the workplace that don't have to come across as cocky or arrogant. And some really nice examples are a friend of mine when she was working at an agency Shani Mears, I interviewed her for the book, she talks about, she created this newsletter, which just rounded up some of the things that she did on a weekend or some of the podcasts that she was listening to, or some of the articles she was reading or the influencers she was following. And she did that sort of, I think it was once a month. And it became so popular, people are emailing or going Shani, when when's the next email coming in. And all of a sudden, she just went from one of 2000 people in an agency to somebody that everybody knew about, and people wanted to come to her for insights and knowledge.

So very simply, I, you know, inspiring people is a really great way to put yourself on the map, you know, positioning yourself as a thought leader or somebody that is on that cutting edge, or understands what people are looking for. And then you know, I always say to people don't underestimate how important it is to support others. You know, when you support your peers, with their promotion, when they're doing something, you know, congratulate them when they've done something well, or when they're working late on something offered to help them with it. And that giving back really does help when it comes to you self promoting, because you've already built almost like an an army of advocates or supporters that you know, as soon as you speak up, they will have your back whether you're in the room or you're not.

So understanding how to build those relationships with people within the workplace is so important because at some point, you're probably going to need to lean into them or you know, ask for their support to help advocate you or to back you the next time you're in a meeting. And you say I really want to do this and having that, that support. And then I also just think don't be afraid to ask to do things. So I've always been potentially a slightly annoying employee in the sense I never like having one job title and just sticking to it. I'm an ideas generator. And when I come up with ideas, I just think, why not try it? Why don't we do it. And, you know, when I worked at an agency, we had a cool gallery space downstairs, and it was Mental Health Awareness Week, we had nothing coming up. And I just said, I'd really love to run this exhibition called what you look fine, where we look at the difference between our social media presence on our mental presence and what that means. Can we do it? And they were like, yeah, if you want to run it all market all do it all. And I was like, Sure, okay, and I went away, did it. And then I was able to run events off the back of that, and they were confident that I would do that, because they know, they knew they could just let me run with it.

So I think a lot of the time we sit in job roles, resenting the actual job specification that we have, or the responsibilities that we have, but we don't ask to change that, or we don't do enough to push for it. And whether it is doing something extra for free, or whether it's, you know, really coming up with a business case as to why you think you deserve that, or why the business would massively benefit if you decided to start a new a new part of the company or lead an internal group that is challenging sustainability in a denim business, you know, really pushing yourself to create that space, because it's not for your bosses to do that for you, it's for you to create that opportunity. And I have definitely either, you know, been frustrated or been bitter and resentful towards bosses that didn't give me opportunities or didn't, you know, show, you know, pick me for certain things. And actually, on reflection, I think a lot of the time, the best things that came from my career, were the ones where I said, I can do this, or I've come up with this idea. And we should absolutely do it and just have that self belief, even if I didn't have the skills or the you know, the knowledge that I could do it that actually no, I want to position myself as someone that can go above and beyond or that has additional skill sets outside the job that you hired me for.
So I suppose in a slightly more succinct way, I suppose. Don't wait for that invitation. Don't wait for that permission to to create something if you've got an idea and and because ultimately self promotion is about telling your story. And you ever tell your story through the achievements that you get to do in your everyday role, or you create other spaces for you to achieve to promote yourself and you do that within the workplace. You can do it outside of the workplace, but if you can do it within the workplace Ace that will only help to raise your profile to build your reputation to get you a pay rise, because people will see the value of you, internally, not just, you know, outside of work as well.

Carla Miller 25:12
Yeah, I love that proactivity and actually just did a podcast, it's just come out last week actually on taking control of your career, because I think those days when you could just sit and wait for your manager when your manager just doesn't have the headspace anymore, if they ever did, and only really the best ones ever really managed to create the time for that anyway. So yeah, getting clear on what you want. And taking those steps proactively is brilliant. One of the things he talked about was advocating for others. And I think a lot of the women that I work with are really good at championing those around them, and particularly their teams, they talk a lot about their teams, but they're not so good at championing themselves. And it was something in your book about the mama bear effect, which I thought was really interesting.

Stef Williams 25:56
Yes, the mama bear effect, I can't remember where I read that is isn't an article online. But there's a study that shows exactly what you've just said, women are more comfortable with being the mama bear, and supporting their kind of cubs around them and celebrating those around them. Because we are very often empathetic and considerate. And we really want to support those around us. But because we're so focused on doing that, it's either a defence thing, that we'd rather channel it into our baby Cubs or our team members, or we're just so focused on supporting others that we forget to support ourselves. And it's definitely something we see in the workplace. I think there's so many different reasons why, you know, from the lack of role models, in senior leadership, or even just past kind of certain levels, very often we don't see that, you know, across ethnicity, and race is also an issue as well. And I think we can't overlook age as being a problem, I think women get treated differently based on their age versus men also, and I was talking to, I did a webinar with major players recently. And they talked about things like the gender pay gap, and actually, it starts literally at graduation, when there's a pay bracket or a salary where men will choose the highest one.

So, if they say we're offering between 35, you know, 20, an entry level job between 20 and 25, the man will go for 2025. And the woman will most likely go for 20. And literally right out of graduating the very first jobs we take men will go for hire women will go for lower, which just immediately builds the gender pay gap, because then when it comes to the next role, the man will go for the extra couple of grand and before you know it that the difference between the two is is actually really, really big. And it's that that's a mindset thing, that's a female thing of of being told not to speak too loudly or not to come across too intense or too bossy or you know, all of those different phrases, I definitely think there's an issue with how women are seen to self promote or how they're allowed to self promote versus men, we definitely get a shorter straw, sadly. And it's something that affects a lot of women globally. And I suppose for being humble.
For me, I obviously am definitely it was to target women start with I've been really surprised to see that a lot of men need support in this space as well. But it is interesting to see how many women just immediately get the message. And because they've been through it, and they get it. And they're very good at advocating for their team and looking after everyone around them. But they forget to look after themselves.

Carla Miller 28:58
Yeah, I see it a lot. So I used to coach men and women and now I focus on women. And almost without exception, these kinds of issues come up when I talk to women was with men, it's maybe a third of them. Well, they've talked to me about imposter syndrome or self doubt. And then some of them are just the idea of doubting themselves. We've just never occurred to them. And it's just the opposite extreme to a lot of the women I work with that they're super successful, but so much self doubt there. And I think that's really interesting what you're saying about when as graduates, it's almost like we're putting everyone else's needs first, even then, and I think I mean, I've been offered though, when I remember when I was younger, being asked how much do I want to be paid? And there was just a point where I went, do you know what, I'm the best person for this job. Therefore I'm going to ask for the top of it but it felt so uncomfortable to do it. I really did have to feel very, very confident in my ability to do the job to do that was Earlier on in my career, I would have absolutely been, well, you know, I don't want to put them out. And so what I'll do is I'll give them this and then maybe they'll really see that my attitudes great. And they'll promote me. It's just, I think that's our default, isn't it for some reason.

Stef Williams 30:14
But the same goes with for labels and wordings, friend, I've been, I'm looking at starting other businesses. And a friend of mine said, Oh, you're such an entrepreneur. And I was honestly like, no, no. And I really like struggled with using that phrase about myself. Even though I am like, the biggest hustler in the world, I am always thinking about, Oh, how can we turn that into an idea? How could we, you know, make money in that way? You know, I've got a worked in new business development for four years, like I understand the process of, of that side of things, but I still wouldn't give myself that title. And I suppose part of that reason is because I don't know that many female entrepreneurs, I don't know many friends that would call themselves I don't, I don't know if it's okay to call myself that or whether people would challenge me on that sort of detail. And, and I, it really made me reflect on how easy it is for us to not even see the possibilities, not let alone in ourselves. But even just the possibilities that a female could do that. And that that's not like my stereotyping. I think it's just that, that I'm not exposed to it as much that I haven't got that many female entrepreneur peers around me that I can look to and go, oh, that could be me. And I think I suppose that's one of the things that I'm really proud of was but being humbled that the real honest story of like I am from Leeds in the north of England, and I had zero contacts and I hustled hard and I've got an amazing list of contacts and clients and have written a book and all these things that never seemed imaginable never seemed imaginable, because that word I always make some I say that's, that's absolutely an insight. It's me, but never seen possible. And I think it's so important that women speak up about their achievements, big small, however, embarrassing or painful it may be for you because without it, we risk a whole wealth of women falling back or not seeing the opportunities that they could have as well.

Carla Miller 32:25
I'm so with you on that I did a webinar recently. And it turned out to be really Marmite people either all loved it, or they were like, no, too much too much selling. And one person said she's just talking about how great her career is. And at first, I felt really shamed by that. And then I was like, actually, no, yes, I Blooding the lamb. Because the reason I was telling that story is to show that if I could do it, someone who was rubbish at managing, had to fire the first person she ever manage. If I can become great at leading, that means you can do it, too. It's about building each other up by sharing successes. Not that someone else is success makes you any less. It's, it's crazy, isn't it? But there's so many different social dynamics going on. And so where did it come from? And why are we all choosing to stick to them?

Stef Williams 33:17
I didn't It really irritates me. I, as I said, it's someone recently active if this, why do we have to compare negatively and not positively? I'd like I talked about in the book, like why do we have such resentment towards other people's success? Why can't we look at it and go, How did they get there? That is so cool. Like, I want to do that, right? I'm gonna research everything they did. And like, take ideas from them. Like why doesn't our mind go that way? Why are we so better? And I think to your point, as well, I post a picture of it's like the infamous picture, the only picture of me with my book right now, which is, I'm wearing a pink shirt. I'm smiling, and I'm holding my book, and I use it for a lot of my headshots. And I remember posting it, I just got the first copy of the book, I was so excited, also really nervous. And I did post on Instagram and said, I just got this and someone DM me who I used to work with. And he was a man and said, God, how smug do you look here? Oh, my God. They didn't say God. He said, How smug do you look here with a crying laughing face? And I was absolutely livid.

And I was just I and I told my boyfriend and he was like, oh, you know, just I'm sure you're joking, blah, blah. I was like, but that's not fair. And that isn't an isn't fair for him to make that comment. And I sort of replied saying, I'd be intrigued to know whether you'd send that message to a man to highlight the point that I don't think one that wasn't the time to Why do you have to do that? And he sort of laughed it off and was like, I was only joking. It's so nice to see how proud you are of yourself. And I was like, Oh, the burn again. And it's it's this issue of Um, that, you know, it is that whole question of like, what some would he have said that to another male, probably not. And I feel that women really do get a different response to promoting themselves. And I'm not telling that story because I am trying to scare any women off when they listen to this, I'm telling it because we all go through. I mean, I get trolls on LinkedIn all the time, it's about being humble.

As you can imagine, with a name like this. I've had it since I started. And I either block and delete their comments, or I just have to look at it and go, you're just not my demographic, and I can't please everyone, and I don't need to waste my time convincing you. It is that whole mindset of thing of going, if that person said that to you, during your webinar, like, Okay, if that's how you feel, I've created this content, you're well within your right to feel that. I don't necessarily agree and that wasn't the intention. But you know, you don't have to open up a debate and talk to her about it. You just have to go, you know, why you you are doing this, and you know, why you set out and why this story is really important for people. So I think it all comes down to it's definitely having a thick skin. And you have to brush away some of those comments, and they still stain. Absolutely. But it's more about how you then respond with that. And how you let that affect you is what's more important?

Carla Miller 36:27
Absolutely. I spent five minutes licking my wounds. And I was like, I'm gonna write a LinkedIn post about this that got like 8000 views, basically people going, yeah, good for you. Let's start celebrating our success and stop making ourselves small. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? One of the things I know that my audience will be crossing me if I don't ask you about is how they can go about getting paid what they're worth. And I might the story I tell is, at one point, I managed a team, there were 12 of them, two men and 10 women. And every time I had a one to one with the men, they would ask me for a pay rise every time for no reason behind it. No, I've done this just every time. And none of the women ever asked for a pay rise and waited for what they were doing to be acknowledged. And because I was really conscious of that what they were doing was acknowledged, but most people aren't how we have a real block about I think lots of people do but particularly women, a real blog about asking for a pay rise. What advice would you give to someone who wants a pay rise and just doesn't know how to go about getting one.

Stef Williams 37:33
So back to my earlier point about being quite an annoying employee, I would always have the job spec that I was working at. And then I would request the jobs but above, so that I could track when I was taking off all the list of the job I was currently doing and then moving into the higher role. Because one of the things that I've definitely been stung up stung on during my career is being promised a pay rise or promotion, then getting to that end of year and then going, Oh, no, no, no, you still need to do some development. And I remember I was like, I am never letting that happen. You literally said to me in four months ago, that I was on track that I was at the highest of my level. And you know, I was I was ticking everything I'd got really great like marks across the board. I was well on track. And I think I say it very, very bluntly, but just to make people really aware is that companies will try their hardest not to pay you appropriately. They not necessarily like always intentionally, but they do the more money they can keep to themselves, the better. So they are not going oh, so he's doing a really good job today, we really need to think about giving them a promoted promotion or a pay rise that is not ever on the top of their agenda. So exactly to your point of you have to make your agenda and it's that whole thing of like not letting the responsibility sit with your boss, which again, I think a lot of us do. It's like they should see how hard I'm working. They should see this when actually they care about themselves. And all they're focused on is getting themselves a promotion or a pay rise. So you are never your boss's priority. Now it sounds like you were obviously a really considerate boss. But generally, that's like a unicorn boss divined that that is keeping an eye on you and making sure that you get the pay rise when you need it. I mean, I've never really found and maybe I've had a couple that have been like that. But most of the time, it's been hard work.

So a few things I would say make sure you've got the job specs for the level you're out and the one above view, make sure you're regularly checking the industry rates and that means not just like if you work in tech looking how much it would be to be a project manager in other tech companies actually going away and looking what it would be to be a project manager in the food industry or the design industry and seeing where salaries how they stack up because ultimately you might have actually falling into a job space where you eat might not even care that much about that industry, you just like the job. And it's important for you to always have leverage when you're going into pay reviews and to have your research with you. And being able to confidently say, look, I've looked across industries and markets and being a project manager here, I'm being tagged paid 10, grand, less than any other industry, I could go. That is that sort of thing where companies like, oh, shit, yeah, you're right, we, you know, we've been caught out. So always do that you got things like major players, salary tracker, and LinkedIn salary tracker, which is a really good place to start just to get an idea, because you can check your levels, you can check based on location, you can check size of company as well, I think.

So it's actually a really good place to start. And then I think I say to everyone, you should, absolutely, you have to prepare your business case. So your business case is looking at the business value you brought, and business value can be anything from increased revenue, created a new opportunity, where they could make more money, maybe you change the process where you helps them reduce their spending, maybe you found a solution that helped improved productivity, and the way that you know, team morale and motivation, you have to look at every achievement, everything that you've done at the company and go, what is the business value, you've got to kind of separate that emotion of I work 12 hour, 12 hour days, every single day to deliver this blah, blah, blah, that's that isn't what the company is looking for the company is looking for you to go.

As a result of this project, we want three more projects that did X, Y, and Zed, or because of the delivery and how happy the clients were on this, they recommended us to three new businesses and that open, you got to look at the business case as to how you've helped that the company improve, not the long hours you spent not to be honest, it is really good for you to identify the skills and how you've grown and what you've done. But all that is relevant to your boss, or to the people that CFOs or Finance Directors, all they care about is how you've helped that business. So always have it looking at the lens of what is the business value in the business benefit you've created as a result of your your hard work. And that that is the difference I think between you going in, and it being a really emotional conversation between you talking about the fact that you're having to eat beans on toast every day, because you haven't got any money, you know, between you talking about, oh, I, you know, I work 10 times harder than that person. And now you're on that that much money, you know, always avoid that, that you have to leave the personal at the door. Because ultimately, all you want to be assessed on is your professional delivery and the impact that you've had. So try and make sure you leave the emotions at the door.

And then finally, I think just make sure that you make it your mission to follow up on whatever the discussion has been made. So if they say, We haven't got the budget right now, but in six months time, we'll assess it, then you put in a diary invite in six months time and you lead that conversation. Or if they say let's review in three months, if we've managed to secure this piece of business, then we can look at that, again. You chase that up, you book it in, do not wait for them to do it. Because nine times out of 10 They'll get busy, they'll forget it, but it's not there. It's not their problem I talked about in the book. It's a CYA, which is the cover your ass email of making sure that you've got it always get any money discussion in writing. And then I run a workshop called pitch but on my money, which is how to ask for more money. And I sort of get this flowchart up at the end where I say you've got three options. You suck it up and you stay in the company you've got because you love the job and you know that money isn't the driver.

You find an alternative source like a side hustle or selling clothes on Depop or you quit your job and you move somewhere else. They are literally your three different options. So, it's not whoa life is me. I never get the money i want i It's not my fault. It's always my boss's fault. They're your free options you control your final financial situation and I know that sounds a bit blunt saying that after this year because I know a lot of us have lost out but what I mean by that is only you have the control to change the situation. So only you can either go get a new job or can start a side hustle or can get selling loads of things on eBay or whatever it is. You can you own you can make that decision. It is not up to your bosses to make that that decision for your to make that life change for you and putting all your eggs in their basket and thinking they will is where you'll end up feeling really disappointed.

Carla Miller 45:10
Yeah, I totally get that. And I think the, I think we can slip into victim mode and get stuck there for quite a while. And whilst it kind of feels nice to wallow for a while, you've got no power in victim mode, because you're just giving it to everyone else, when actually you do always have the power to make those decisions like you're talking about, you can always decide what you're worth and walk if you need to. Interesting. And one of the other things that you talk about within your book is networking, which I imagine is really important to self promotion. But it's another one of those things that people have a bit of a mental block about, I can't tell you the number of people I talk to about I don't do networking. I don't like networking, I hate networking. But networking, especially now in this digital age, it looks quite different now, doesn't it?

Stef Williams 45:57
Massively. I actually, you know, Simon Sinek. I watched a video he did on Instagram the other day. And he said, there is a difference between introvert and extrovert. And he says that because introverts and extroverts comes up all the time when it comes to networking. And he actually explains that people don't really understand what introvert means being an introvert means that you can go into social situations. But when you come out of them, you are stripped of your energy and you're tired, and it's quite a chore. Extroverts go into situations where it's networking, or parties come out of it, and they're buzzing.

So when people say, Oh, I'm an introvert, I can't do networking, that actually doesn't make sense, because that's not the meaning behind that word. And I really am on a mission to not let labels that you've had throughout your career throughout your childhood, stop you from networking, because there are so many different ways to network. I'm a big digital network. I mean, I love in person networking, I buzz off it as I talked about, I love meeting people, storytelling, all those situations, but I had to seriously network my ass off and learn how to do it.

For a good two or three years before I felt like I was actually seeing good results. I don't think just because you're a confident or outgoing person, that that makes you good at networking. And I think that's a big myth that needs to be changed is one of the biggest learnings I had from networking was I used to walk in and just blurt out my sales pitch immediately. And it was the complete wrong way to do it. It was it's why I teach again, I have an a networking workshop where explains people, the more questions you can ask the person you're speaking to, the better your pitch will be. So if you can keep that person going, you keep asking questions about them and their business, you will then be building up all the information you need to effectively pitch yourself back to them. If you walk into a room and say hi, I do self promotion talks, and my talks are all about foot being humble, I could just immediately write off that contact because I haven't taken the time to understand what they're looking for what they need and what they want. And yeah, I used to network three to four times a week, every week, two years when I worked for a startup. And it's really where I learned that it isn't about being the loudest or the most outgoing. It's about the person who can listen the most and actually the best. And there's some psychology that that shows that when you ask people, lots of questions about themselves. They'll then panic and go, oh shit, I've been talking about myself, I need to know that ask them questions. So it's almost a bit of a power play.

Even though it doesn't seem like it's more powerful to listen, ask as many questions as you can at the start. So that that person then feels like they need to really give you the time because they've rabid stone about themselves. So that would be a tip for in person networking, I think digital networking. When I started my events, I'd always have panels. I didn't know any of the people that were on my panels. I regularly go on podcasts where I've never met the person I regularly go meet people that I've never met before I absolutely I'm one of those people that slide into people's DMS and like their stuff on LinkedIn. And I recently ran a course to help graduates start their own side hustles and actually went on to do it just for everyone, because this year has been such a tough year and people wanted to run their own businesses. And I got Pinterest on my my course because I liked one of the things that the senior partnerships manager had done on LinkedIn. I kept liking her stuff. And then I dropped her message and said, I'd love you to be on my course. And she said yes, that is a form of digital networking. I'd never met her I have not grown a relationship with her before. And I think we we forget how easy it actually is to build relationships on online.

And actually, I made the joke that although of all events have been cancelled this year, and I massively miss people, and I massively miss that input. and feeling there is a beauty of not having to network and drink the shit wine and talk to people you don't really want to talk to. But there is something really nice about that. And it's incredible that we have things like LinkedIn where you can be connected with the CEO of glossier tomorrow. And you know, you never had that relationship before. So, I am such a big believer in networking and being appropriate for anyone. And so essential. So, so essential. I can't tell you how many opportunities have come my way. I spoke at Cannes Lions festival, because I went to an event where I ended up getting introduced to the cultural programmer of the entire festival. And I said, I've actually missed the application, I really wanted to try and speak but I missed out, I was super busy.

But I remember that being humble. And I would have, I would have loved to have talked on about this. And he was like, Oh, cool. And I really didn't think I got much back from it. And then three months later, he messaged me, it was like we met at an event three months ago, and we have a spare slot, we'd love you to come give a talk. And it was mental, like I had dreamt of going speak at Ken like that was a career goal for me. And within one year of running for being humbled that happened because I was open about speaking about what I was working on to complete strangers. And yeah, there's so many amazing the other person I mentioned about Pinterest, she recently referred me to somebody else that was looking for a talk. And now I'm giving a talk for graduate Fashion Week, next next year. And I think there's a really nice, I really want to think think of a phrase for it. I can't think of it yet. But the domino effect that comes from one introduction with some, so I very often meet one person, do a talk for them, and then get recommended by from someone else. And I think there's something about one person's net, you connect with one person, you obviously then get all of their network to and there is something that is so powerful in leveraging that and not being afraid to ask for an introduction. And if you can see I'm connected to the CEO at Microsoft, then why wouldn't you say, oh, Steph, I can see that you're connected? Would you mind give me an instruction? Because I'd love to speak to them. You know, it really just like letting go of that embarrassment of well, I look cheeky. It's like, well, you'll never know if you don't ask. I'm such a strong believer of if you don't ask, you just don't get and I think that is massively true networking.

Carla Miller 52:26
I remember someone telling me that they were in Victoria Beckham's makeup artist at some point. And then the piece of advice she gave them was just ask. Just ask ask ask if you don't ask you don't get and I was like, that's so obvious. It just hadn't occurred to me at all. It's funny. I mean, I so I reached out to you. And we don't know each other reached out to you. And you said yes to the podcast, which is great. I've been doing that with others as well. I have a mental block about positioning myself as a podcast guests, because I might well, I haven't written my book. Yeah, I know what I like to talk about. I know that influence and impact is a hugely important topic. How can I go about I'm going to tap your, your brains here? How can I go about positioning myself as a good podcast guest.

Stef Williams 53:14
So it's that whole thing that we've talked about, that I talk about all the time is, if you want to be seen for something, you have to put yourself out there, and you have to put your opinions out there. So I love this. I often get interviewed, whether it's by journalist or podcast, and I always get asked to give feedback to them. And I'm like, Oh, I hope this is I hope I don't say anything wrong. But what I would say is, if you want to be seen as a podcast guest, how were you the reason you would get invited to speak on other people's podcast is because you have opinions on something that may be topical, it may be taboo, it may be helping people. But how are you currently showing those opinions.

So, if they're all in your head and not publicly facing, then no one will know you. And they won't know that you'd be a great podcast guest. So I'd say you know, write articles do post where you're sharing your thoughts. And also, just don't be afraid to get in contact and introduce yourself and all of your experience. So Lecturer in progress, which is the sister brand, it's nice that do a full careers podcast, and I loved it. And I message them again, was not long running for being humble. I want to say like six months, and I said, I love your podcast. I listened to it regularly. This is why I'd love to be on it.

So, if you're ever looking for guests in the future, these are all the different things that I can talk about. And then a week later, they were in my living room. We were recording the podcast. And it's that whole thing of Yes, I could have waited 10 years before I felt like I had a book or something to talk about. Or I can be very open and I don't even want to say forward because I don't think it is forward. I think it's just like being clever in the sense that So why is that whole thing is like to be remembered, you need to be top of mind. So how are you top of mind of the podcasters? That you want to be in front of, you know, are you? Are you even on their radar? Because if you're not, that's the first step, right. So I think it is just, you know, whatever you want to be known or seen for how you putting your perspective in the spaces where people will see you for that, if that was too much of a riddle of a line. But yeah, you know, for me, I realised recently that I'm a public speaker. And this is something that I think many business founders can get into, not into trouble but can fall behind in a way is, I have foot being humble. But right now I have a website of foot being humble. But that doesn't tell you about Stephanie sword Williams, that isn't that isn't giving you the overview of everything, I can do that as foot being humble, and I am the mind behind it. And so the past couple of months I've been I've rebuilt my website, and I've started my own personal website where it says that I'm an author, I'm a public speaker, I'm a writer. I'm an event host, I'm a presenter, I have a radio show all these things that aren't shown on foot being humble. That's that whole thing is I had exactly the same I was like, I want to do more as public speaking for brands and clients where they, they book me, but where does it say on the internet that I'm a public speaker, it doesn't my job.

And it's very easy for us to fall behind the brand or, you know, hide behind the brands we've created or the services that we have, without actually properly marketing themselves. And then last week, I decided I wanted to do like a two page speaker pack where people could download it, and I shared it on LinkedIn. And I just said, for any to all my contacts, I just want to let you know I'm available for bookings, I'm I can talk on panels, podcast events, whatever it is, I can, I'm often celebrated for funny meme filled presentations, or mine, like no bullshit, straight talk in agony, and whatever you need, I could do an International Women's Day, I could do a January back to work booster session, you let me know, here's my public speaking hack. And here's all the things I could talk about. Here's some relevant links. And my details are at the bottom. Loads of people liked it, and people have messaged me off the back of it. But if I didn't put that out there, they wouldn't have remembered me to be doing that. And sometimes it's just the most simple things. And I'm sure you'll feel this as well, because I speak to a lot of coaches and people that help others is that we absolutely forget to do it for ourselves. And I felt embarrassed that I didn't, I didn't have my website, because I was I was just using things like LinkedIn and the dots when actually there are limitations to their channels. And if I wanted to probably tell my story, and probably show all of the skills that I have, and all of the achievements I needed to create my own website.

So I did it and I now I can pitch myself out to be but I feel way more rounded. So I think a lot of the time, the reason you don't feel like it is because you haven't gathered all that information into one place so that you can send it out to people. The worst thing is when people say, Oh, my website's under construction, my portfolio is still not finished. And I'm like, Well, you've lost that opportunity, then I'm not going to come chase you for that. So I think it really is just, I say it's, you have to have your own marketing and distribution strategy. We can't just expect that because you say that you are a life coach that everybody is just going to come knocking on your door. How are you distributing that message? And how are people seeing that?

So, yeah, I think I hope there's some advice either that you can take away and to try and position yourself more. But more often than not, it's literally I split of one of my catchphrases is just care less and share more, the more you share, the more likely you're going to get picked up by different people in different places.

Carla Miller 58:59
Yeah, I think that's really helpful. I think I'm a bit like a mama bear in terms of, for me, it's all about the women that I work with. And I'm also quite protective of my programmes, like they're my little babies that have turned into something transformational for people. So I'm so comfortable talking about my clients successes and about my programme. But talking about myself or focusing on a different audience that feels like it benefits me is like, oh, so I need to work through some of those. Some of the assumptions and stories I'm telling myself just like you and I both tell people to do. Brilliant. Oh, this has been so helpful. Thank you. Is there any last thoughts that you would want to leave my listeners with in terms of how they can start being humble?

Stef Williams 59:46
The one thing that I'd say and recommend to a lot of people, it's just not to let labels limit you. I think personally, I've been on a journey over the past year, six past six months, where I realised that when I was younger, I was sort of told and seen as the creative one that didn't necessarily wasn't that there wasn't high hopes and ambitions. But it's definitely something that I've carried in the sense that that exact comment I said earlier is like, Am I an entrepreneur? Because I was always meant to be the creative RT one or am I a business owner and an author does that that jar with me a bit. And I think we have to break free from the labels that we reverse that from other people, or that we set ourselves when we were younger, or as we've grown for our careers, because you change so regularly. And it's up to you, for you to control that narrative. And you can change direction tomorrow, you can say you want to be anything you want to be.

But you just have to channel your energy into that and let go of all that self doubt or any of those labels that you've received over the years, because that's something that I think can really slow people down. And ultimately, it was just one throwaway comment that someone made that you've clung on to your entire life. And that that's not something that should stop you from doing what you want to do. So yeah, just don't let labels limit you. That's, that's one of my biggest takeaways.

Carla Miller 1:01:11
Brilliant and then if people want to find out more about any workshops you've got coming up, but what, how can people get more of this great stuff.

Stef Williams 1:01:19
So please do if you've enjoyed today's podcast, I sorry for the salesy pitch there. But if you have enjoyed it, you can grab a copy of my book, it is a book that should help you at all stages of your career, you can get it in print, and audio. But if you've not enjoyed listening to my voice, I'd recommend print. And you can also join my workshops and courses for 2020. I am now done for the year, which I'm super happy about. But 2021, I am planning lots of different events. And one of the courses I'm running is big up yourself, which is a bit to your point collar and how do I position myself in a certain way, it's a two week crash course on how to become an expert or a thought leader or somebody that is maybe wants to change directions, and position themselves as someone who knows what they're doing.

I'll give you all the advice on that. And particularly coming from someone who works in advertising for seven years and is now a careers adviser of sorts with no qualifications or experience or credentials in that way more just my experience and the lived experiences that I tell. So if you do need any support on that, please do check out the course. And yeah, and please do recommend for being humble because it's a real word of mouth movement. And I'm really grateful to everyone that has championed the brand and then the mission even when I'm not in the room. So yeah, grab your copy of the book and check out our events and courses.

Carla Miller 1:02:47
Fantastic. And yeah, I second that highly recommend the book. And I really wish I'd read it in my 20s rather than in my 40s. So thanks very much for putting that into the world. And thanks very much for being my guest today.

Stef Williams 1:03:02
No worries. Thank you so much for having me.

Carla Miller 1:03:11
If you've listened to the podcast and you want to know more about how we can work together, here are a few places you can look.

First of all, I've got a couple more freebies, I've got a free PDF on increasing your leadership impact at work, and I've also got a free masterclass on becoming a more influential leader without letting self doubt hold you back.

So head on over to the website to book yourself a place on the masterclass or to download that PDF. There are my open programmes influence and impact for women at management and leadership level and be bolder a four week live assertiveness and confidence course for women at any level.

You can preorder my book closing the influence gap, a practical guide for women leaders who want to be heard.

You can also work with me one to one particularly if you're a senior leader, and you can hire me to work in house to do talks for awareness weeks, one of workshops, a series of workshops or to run my influence and impact programme or be bolder programme in house as a women's leadership or women's empowerment offering.

If you want to talk about any of those on my website, you can drop me an email or you can also book a quick 15 minute chat so we can talk about what you need and how I might be able to help you or your organisation so I look forward to chatting to you. Take care