Carla Miller 00:00
Welcome to the influence and impact podcast for female leaders. My name is Carla Miller. And I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self doubt become brilliant influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. And I want to become the leadership BFF that you didn't know you were missing until now. I'm gonna keep it really real in this podcast intro and let you know what is going on behind the scenes.

So it is school summer holidays and I am a rookie at this because my five year old previously hasn't had a school summer holiday. And so I have failed to plan successfully. Now I know why everyone tells me they have a spreadsheet for the summer holidays. So I shall be juggling this summer holidays a bit more than I thought I would be. I had this picture in my head of the one day proper childcare that I've got from my parents, and then other days a week popping him into nursery when I felt that that was needed. Anyway, I called nursery a couple of weeks ago and said great, so I'm going to book him in for these dates. And they laughed in a really kind way, because it had been booked up for months. So I will not be doing as much working over the summer holidays.

As I thought I will also not be doing as much podcast recording as I thought. He's currently watching Spider Man on television and has already interrupted me recording this three times. I'm also expecting Alexa to go in a minute to tell me that my flapjacks are ready because we have to take something to the barbecue tomorrow in the pouring rain for school. And clearly I forgot and did not order anything from Tesco in time. So that's an insight into what's happening in my world. It's also a reason why what we are doing over the summer period is bringing back some oldie but goodie episodes.

Now I only recently discovered the apple and Spotify only show the most recent 100 episodes, there is no way on those apps to get any of the episodes before the most recent 100. And we're at 140. Now, so there's some really, really fantastic episodes that you won't be able to listen to. So what I've done is go through those and say, which are the episodes that are absolutely key to what I talk about here on the podcast. So absolutely key to how you feel about yourself as a leader, how you're able to influence others, how you deal with some of the more challenging moments of leadership. And we are starting with two episodes on perfectionism. Because perfectionism is such a massive issue. And it's really about the super, super high standards that we set of ourselves that no one else expects us to meet. And then we beat ourselves up and feel like failures because we're not meeting them.

So this episode, we're going to look at how perfectionism and overworking isn't actually the reason you are successful. In fact, it could be doing you more harm than good. And it certainly did for me in the past. So we're gonna look at that in today's episode. And then in the next episode, we're going to look at some really practical strategies that you can use to overcome perfectionism. And then we've got some other fantastic topics coming up in the weeks after that, and I shall be back with fresh episodes at the start of September, hopefully having survived an interesting summer with my five year old and let's pray for some sunshine, maybe not Heatwave, but just an end to this rain that is pretty constant in Cumbria at the moment. So enjoy this episode, if you've listened to it before see it as a healthy reminder. But I think most of you will not have had the opportunity to listen to it before and it's jam packed with some of my very best stuff on perfectionism and how it affects your confidence.

The years I thought that I was doing well in my career because I worked so hard and because I held myself to such high standards. Then I realised that those strategies are actually causing me as much harm as they were good. I coach a lot of high achieving women at all levels, and perfectionism in its various guises crops up all the time. Often it looks like overworking or trying to be in control of everything in your life, which is a big one for me, or procrastination or fear of failure. So in this episode of the influence and impact podcast, I'd like to explore how perfectionism may be holding you back. And this isn't just for people who already identify as a perfectionist.

I'm not a massive fan of labelling yourself as anything anyway, to be honest. But there are lots of elements to perfectionism that I see in many successful hire tree being driven women. And so we're going to use this topic as a way of helping you to identify if maybe you have some of those and if you can do something about it.

Now, this is a two parter episode. In this first episode, we're going to unpick why perfectionism, and overworking, which is really closely aligned to perfectionism isn't helping you and could be holding you back. Because at some level, you believe it is helping you that's why you're still doing it. So whenever we want to create change, we need to look at the beliefs you have, which are driving those behaviours. And think about whether you want to still hold those beliefs or not. So we're going to do that in this episode. And then in the next episode, we're going to look at some strategies that you can use to help you to tackle your perfectionism. So this is sort of laying the foundation for that next episode. What is a perfectionist, there are a million different definitions out there, I googled and could not find the one that was absolutely perfect. But essentially, people who experienced perfectionism are very focused on how things should be done, may believe that they should deliver a perfect performance 100% of the time, and that nothing short of perfect is acceptable. And it's not always about holding other people to those standards. So I know a lot of people and in fact, I would include myself within this who hold very high standards for themselves. But don't force everyone else to achieve those high standards. Having said that, working for a perfectionist is actually really hard, even if they are keeping that under control, which I think a lot of us are trying to, because someone works for you, they are using you as a role model, if they see yourself not accepting things as good enough and always aiming for perfection, if they see you beating yourself up for not being perfect. If they see you diminishing achievements because they weren't as successful as you wanted them to be. That all sends messages to them about how they should behave and about how you value what they do, as well.

There's a really interesting distinction between perfectionists and high achievers, or I think quite often you also see high achievers labelled as adaptive or positive perfectionism. So you can use either label. For simplicity, I'm going to use the label of high achievers. Having just said I'm going to use the label, it's to explain the concept to you. I am not expecting you to go around and claim yourself as a perfectionist or a high achiever after this, it's just a really good way of showing you the difference between being a perfectionist and having high standards.

Okay, so let's have a think about this. Essentially, there is a difference between how perfectionists tackle things and deal with things and how high achievers tackle things and deal with things. And really a high achiever is someone who's mastered that ability to have goals to drive themselves forward, to aim for excellence, but without the negative traits that come with perfectionism. So ideally, High Achiever is the way of working that we're aiming for. So I want to talk you through some areas in which these two groups are different.

So the first area is push versus poor. High achievers tend to be pulled towards their goals by a desire to achieve them, and they're happy with any steps that are made in the right direction. perfectionists, however, tend to be pushed towards their goals by fear of not achieving them, and they see anything less than a perfectly matched goal as a failure. Then there's standards. So often the standards that perfectionist set themselves are unrealistic. They're not reasonable, they're not achieved. Trouble. So whilst high achievers can set their goals high, and enjoy the fun of going a bit further, once that goal is reached, perfection is often set their initial goals out of reach. And that's really difficult if you think like a perfectionist, and if you lead a team, because you'll be setting standards that other people may not even be able to picture, nevermind, achieve. So it's really something to be aware of as a manager in particular, but being aware of it personally, as well, I love a high goal, I love to stretch myself. But what I have learned to do is not attach my feelings to achieving that goal. It's really, really hard this idea of non attachment.

A lot of it comes from Buddhism, and meditation, and mindfulness can really help you with that. But one thing that has super super helped me with that actually is something I learned from my coach, which is, and I put it in a business context, because this is how I learned it. But we can apply it to leadership as well say I wanted to have a million pound business, if I set the goal that I wanted my business to make a million pounds this year. And I worked really hard towards that and I didn't achieve it, I might feel very disappointed, and it might actually demotivate me going forward. Instead, what he says to do is to set your goal as playing the game of being a 1 million pound business owner. So you step into that persona, and you think what would a million pound business owner do in this situation. And I have found that really helpful. And so if we try and apply that to leadership, instead of thinking, I mean, you could equally apply it to a fundraising team and that target, we want to be a team that achieves this target. Well, yeah, it would be amazing to achieve that target. But actually, you get just as much from being aiming to be the high performing team that acts like it achieves that target because then long term, you can achieve that target again and again and again. So that's just something to think about whether you can be less attached to the actual goal and more attached to the journey to what you're going to learn along the way to how you're going to develop as a leader along the way, so that standards, the next difference between the two is having a critical eye.

So perfectionists are far more critical of themselves, and generally of others than high achievers are high achievers take pride in their accomplishments, they tend to be supportive of others, perfectionist tend to spot tiny mistakes and imperfections in their work. And in themselves, and also in others. And in the work of other people, their eye is drawn to that little thing that's gone wrong rather than the bigger picture. They hone in on these imperfections and they can have trouble seeing anything else. And as a result, they can be quite judgmental, and quite tough on themselves and potentially on others as well when what they see as failure has occurred. And that's why it's not a very helpful trait for you to have or for someone else to have. Because it can lead you to feel disappointed in your team and the people around you when they're not meeting your standards. For example, another difference is all or nothing thinking. So both perfectionists and high achievers set high goals and work towards them. But a high achiever can be satisfied with doing a great job and achieving excellence or something close to excellence. Even if the goals aren't met, that perfectionist will accept nothing less than their goal as originally pictured. If it's not perfect, they consider it to be a failure. So that is quite similar to the point made earlier. But this all or nothing black and white thinking is an unhelpful trait to have as a leader anyway, there's a really interesting new book that's come out by Adam Grant called Think Again, that talks about the different types of Thinker we are and communicator we are. So he talks about how some people are preachers and they're convinced they're right, and they're just trying to evangelise everybody else. Some people are prosecutors, so they're focused on telling other people how they're wrong. Some people are politicians, so they're trying constantly shifting their message to try and appeal to everyone and be liked by everyone. And some people are scientists who are more curious and more open minded to different ways of looking at things.

I was listening to a podcast with him just this morning, which was really interesting on that scientists probably make great leaders, because they are not so stuck in their own perspective, they're able to see different possibilities. When you see something as right or wrong, perfect or imperfect, it's really hard to, to talk to other people about that it's really hard to not get stuck in your perspective, because when you attach the word right or wrong to something, it brings up all sorts of emotions. And if something's wrong, then it just feels wrong. And if something's 100%, right, then you feel like you have to fight for it. Why is this idea that actually, nothing is that clear cut, and nothing is that black and white, will help you to develop as a leader and just be more open minded basically. And then let's talk about focusing on results. So high achievers can enjoy the process of chasing a goal, as much as or even more than the actual reaching of the goal. So this is a bit like what I talked about earlier, in terms of what my mentor said, they enjoy the journey more than the destination are perfectionists are all about the goal, all about the destination. And they're so concerned about meeting it and avoiding failure, that they can't enjoy the process of growing and striving. And you see this sometimes when people align managing, in that they quite often go into task focus, because it's all about achieving the task. And then they neglect the people focus when they're communicating.

So if you find that you're all about getting the task done at all costs, it could be that you have some perfectionist tendencies, it could be that you're missing some of the people side when you're communicating to your team. And when you're feeling depressed about unmet goals. And I really resonate with this. Myself, I can find myself really focused on getting stuff done on ticking things off the to do list. And then you could spend your day well your days, your weeks, all the precious time in your life, trying to get things done and ticking them off the to do list. And you never actually get to enjoy yourself and stop and appreciate life. And yes, there's a satisfaction to ticking things off the to do list. I do love to do that. But actually Life shouldn't be a to do list and even your working life shouldn't be constantly run by a to do list there should be connection there as well, particularly as a leader. And perfectionists are generally a bit less happy and a bit less easygoing, than high achievers. So high achievers can bounce back fairly easily from disappointment, but perfectionist tend to beat themselves up much more and wallow in their negative feelings when their high expectations go unmet. And that obviously links to fear of failure as well. They're more afraid to fail than high achievers, because they placed so much stock in the results and they become so disappointed by anything less than perfection, that failure becomes a very scary prospect for them.

A lot of perfectionist align the quality of their work with their value as a person. And this is huge. I see this in so many people and I lived this for such a long time, and have to be really intentional and self aware to not keep living it to be honest. So many of us are trying to prove to ourselves to the people we know and love to the world to people who caused us harm in the past, we're trying to prove that we are enough that we're good enough. And one of the ways a lot of us try and do that is by trying to deliver work as perfectly as possible. We believe that our work is absolutely a reflection of our value as a person. And so if our work is imperfect, then that means we're imperfect. If our work is criticised them we feel like we are being criticised. And so if that's how you feel if you feel like the quality of your work reflects your value as a person, then obviously you'll be pushing and pushing all the time to make sure that work is as perfect as possible. And if it's not, or if you're responsible for something that fails, then you make it mean something about you and that doesn't feel good. So of course you're going to avoid that at all costs. You're going to avoid doing things you're not good at, you're going to avoid things that are new to you where you're not going to look good, because failing is going to mean something about yourself.

So this is obviously really closely aligned to fixed mindset as well, which we've talked about in previous episodes. Another thing that perfectionist tend to struggle with is procrastination, because they're so focused on getting things perfect and avoiding failure and not doing something that isn't quite perfect that they become frozen in fear of doing something. And this can also apply to their thinking. So they can be scared of making the wrong decision, and they end up not making a decision. Or they'd rather something was perfect, then it was handled in on time, not completely perfect. And so sometimes they miss deadlines. So ironically, the very thing they're trying to achieve, which is doing things as well as possible, is actually being made more difficult by their perfectionist tendencies.

Defensiveness also comes up a lot, because a less than perfect performance is so painful and scary to perfectionist, they tend to take constructive criticism defensively. Most high achievers who have more of a growth mindset can see criticism as valuable information to help their future performance. And I have definitely worked really hard to evolve from perfectionist to high achiever. And I've really seen the difference in terms of how I deal with feedback, what would have set me back hugely in the past, now, I feel a bit bruised, maybe for like 20 minutes. And then I see that actually, they've got a fair point. And I could learn from what they have to say.

And finally, self esteem ties into this as well. So high achievers tend to have higher self esteem than people who identify as perfectionist, because perfectionist can be very self critical. And that can make you very unhappy as a result. And people who have experienced a lot of perfectionism can become quite lonely or isolated because of their critical nature. So that's a bit of a vicious circle, as well. So hopefully, that list has helped you to identify either that you're a high achiever. And that's awesome. And I hope that lots of you are in that category or moving towards that category. I hope that this podcast is helping some of you with your journey to become a high achiever, rather than a perfectionist. But you may have also listened to that and thought I recognise myself in some of those perfectionist descriptions, or even I recognise myself in all of those perfectionist descriptions. And there's no judgement here, the rest of the world isn't going to judge you for being a perfectionism. But being a perfectionist in some ways you might be rewarded for it.

The reason I share it is because you'll be happier. If you're not, you won't be exhausting yourself with overwork, trying to prove yourself all the time if you can make that shift from perfectionist to high achiever. So I just want to reiterate that there's no shame here at all, if you do recognise yourself as a perfectionist. But there are some things you can do to help you to keep the best of perfectionism and lose the worst a bit. So to become what can be called a high achiever or to have that positive or adaptive perfectionism. So what I want to do now is just help you reflect on that a bit and share some thoughts. So the reason so let's say you do have some perfectionist traits, the reason that you do is because at some level you believe that works for you. That's the reason we do most of the things is that we've done them in the past, and it's helped us so we just keep on doing them.

So what I want to do is unpack whether where you're at right now in your life, perfectionism might be holding you back. So in an ideal world, you'd have a pen and paper and be able to pause me so that you can actually do a bit of a coaching exercise here. That would be best, but if not, you can just have a listen and pause and have a think if you're driving you're just have to have a really quick think. So the first question to ask yourself is what do you give perfectionism? Or overworking or pushing yourself too hard? Because I think really they all do come down to the same thing. What do you give that the credit for? What successes are you are crediting to that perfectionism that overworking that pushing yourself so hard? So I want you to have a think about those and write those down. And then the next question I want to ask yourself is, what is that costing you? And that's probably not something you've thought about before necessarily, or not in this context, but what is that costing you? So bad? sway to describe that as to tell you what it used to cost me. I used to be constantly running on adrenaline, I think because I was just trying to keep going all the time. And particularly, if I was going into a turnaround situation where there was a lot expected of me and my team, when I was fundraising director, and we had huge targets. And there were big implications if we didn't meet them. That adrenaline that was constantly running through me, eventually gave me burnout. I think the phrase is adrenal failure, actually, where you get exhausted, but mine was, mine was physical, but it was actually mainly mentor, I went from being highly motivated to just not wanting to do it anymore, not wanting any responsibility anymore, I quit my job, sold my house, sold my car, and decided to just do fun things for a couple of years. Actually, it was kind of awesome. So I'm not saying that I wouldn't recommend that, however, that burnout is not a nice experience at all. What else is really hard to have balance. And I find that with myself, now that overworking that drive, it's hard to switch off, and it's hard to switch off, even when I'm doing stuff around the house or spending time with my three year old, I have to really make myself stop and enjoy the moment and enjoy those precious little moments. Because my brain is constantly thinking about what's next on that to do list if I let it. And so it could be costing you relationships, it could be you know, there have definitely been times in my life when I've worked so hard. And I thought, Well, I haven't got the headspace to go and find a relationship, for example. Or I haven't got the headspace to I don't have time to have children at the moment, I need to do X.

So there, there is a cost to that perfectionism to that overworking to that pushing yourself too hard. It might be about your relationship with other people in the organisation as well. So I want you to write that down. And that's all the coaching we're going to do on this because it's just shining a light on whether or not it's costing you anything. If it isn't then great. You don't need to do anything about it. But if you've identified that actually is costing you something, then the strategies in the next podcast episode will be really helpful. Another thing that I think has come up a lot this year or well this past 12 months, is that we are often trying to be perfect leaders. And who knows what that actually looks like. I think it actually looks different for each of us. However, a lot of us are clinging to this idea of perfect leadership. That actually is what perfect leadership looked like 18 months ago, back in normality, we're pushing ourselves to try and do everything that we were doing then in these new circumstances. And so I just like to encourage you to give yourself permission to not be the perfect leader, but to be a learning leader to try and and yes, aim to be the best leader you can be. But don’t set yourself these impossibly high standards that are really hard to meet in normal times nevermind in lockdown, which we're in as I record this.

The second thing I want to say to you is perfectionism is not the secret to your success. Actually your success comes down to all sorts of things, your unique way of looking at things, your natural talent, the experience you have, the relationships that you have. All of that combines together with hard work to make you the person you are today. It is not just about how hard you worked. And if the law of diminishing returns, isn't it there is a point at which you you put a certain amount of effort in to reach a certain standard and after that you're having to put a lot more effort in for each percentage point improvement. In standards, there is a point where the input and the output is most efficient, and that's normally not at perfection. It's before then. I remember having a conversation with my coach when I was first thinking about this area where he said to me What if you didn't give 110 percent, to everything. And it was like he was speaking a foreign language, I just could not comprehend what he was talking about. Because everything in my life had been about giving 110% to everything. And he was a really powerful coach, he just asked me that question. We didn't really delve deeper after that. But that's when I realised that actually my identity was really closely aligned to my achievements. And my work and my underlying beliefs and trying to prove to myself to everyone around me to the world that I was good enough, was really the driver between why behind why I was working so hard. Yes, I, I do get pulled, pulled by positive results. I'm very vision orientated, I love a goal to aim towards. But actually, at that point in time, it was fear that was fueling and pushing my hard work and my stress levels, rather than desire to achieve the goals. So if the idea of not giving 110% And apologies to all the maths people that tell me that's incorrect, it's just the face works for me. So hopefully, it will work for some of you as well, if the idea of not giving 110% to everything is terrifying to you, if it makes you hyperventilate, like it did for me, that tells me that there are some unhelpful thought patterns, driving your hard work and your behaviour, just like there were for me.

The other thing that really came up for me in terms of underlying beliefs is that I thought that I needed to be perfect in order to be good enough as a person in order to be lovable, I think. And like many people who were raised at the time that I was raised, my parents are lovely, and they did their best. And they focused on praising my achievements. And so I got a lot of praise when I did well at school. And that obviously encourages you to do more, to do well at school more, which is great. But it also that positive attention as a small child, you were quite positive attention to love. And so somewhere in my childhood brain, and I know I'm not alone in this, I equated doing well with being more lovable. But I'd never really connected those dots. And then that childhood thinking actually runs your adult thinking, your behaviour, your decisions, your actions. Without you realising it.

It's this underlying script or belief. And so I believe that I needed to be perfect to be more likeable, to be better, to be more lovable. And I definitely tried to do that work. And I definitely have in the past tried to be the perfect girlfriend as well. That might actually surprise some of my ex boyfriends, but I really was trying. Anyway, what helped me to break that idea was, this was quite a long time ago. Desperate Housewives was on television. And there was this character Bree in Desperate Housewives. And in the first season or so I think things evolved after that turned out to be a bit of psycho, I think. But in the first season, she was this Stepford wife, like, she was perfect, she was the perfect mother, everything was under control. And I do love the idea of things being under control. And so she was perfect. And she was unlikable, because of her perfection, because she was actually controlling and trying to keep everything under control. And that's when I first started to realise it's our flaws that make us lovable. And when we're okay with our flaws, when we see them, when we accept them, when we are happy to share them with others, then others can see who we really are. And they can connect to us and they can resonate with us. And so all that time, and I apologise for waiting for straying off into my love life here. But all that time, I was trying to be the perfect girlfriend, essentially, I was putting on a little bit of a front and not showing who I really was. And it was really hard for someone to actually love me as me because they had no idea who I was as me because I was just trying so hard to be the perfect girlfriend. And I see that now, in my business as well.

When I first started focusing on leadership coaching, I would look at how everyone else was doing it and look at these big corporates. These big brands on my website looked like any other leadership website, it was blue, like most leadership websites are some of them put a bit of chlorine in there as well, these days, I think my language was the same as everyone else's. And I just wanted to be as professional as possible. And then what I discovered through sharing on LinkedIn actually is when I talked about failures, when I talked about the things I struggled with, when I talked about struggling honestly, with being a working mom, I got so much engagement, and people started to really connect with me what I was saying resonated. And I have really found that sharing my story of leadership and not sharing, yes, I do share the successful results I had when I was a leader, but I also share what was going on behind the surface and the things I was learning about myself. And that's why that's why you listen to this podcast. If you didn't like that, if you found that annoying, you wouldn't be listening to this, you'd be going and getting your inspiration, insight ideas from someone else that you did resonate with.

So my humaneness, my flaws are actually one of the reasons I'm really good at what I do. And I'm not the best in the world at leadership coaching. I hope I'm really good at it. But I'm probably not the best in the world. Definitely not the most well established, I don't have loads of books. But I am imperfect and still able to really help other people. And you can be an imperfect leader and still be a good leader, still be able to bring the best out in other people, you can be a learning leader, you don't have to be perfect all the time. Okay, I feel like that was a bit of a self help session for me. And perhaps for you as well.

I hope that there's been something really useful in here in terms of opening your eyes to some things you might be doing that are not helping and serving you. And I'm looking forward to the next episode where we're going to talk about some practical strategies that you can use if this has resonated and if you're thinking actually I do have some perfectionist traits.

So if you've been listening to this, and thinking, I think perfectionism might be a bit of an issue for me. And it's something I'd like to feel less alone in, I'd like to normalise and stop beating myself up for. And if you'd like to do that alongside other people, so that you feel much more normal in your perfectionism, and so that you're not judging yourself and beating yourself up, then do look at our Be Bolder confidence and assertiveness course that is coming up in October. It's for women at any level. And 94% of people who take it come out feeling more confident, with a more positive mindset, more willing to and able to have challenging and courageous conversations, and more willing to speak up in meetings. So I love that course, we'd love to see you on it.

If you are a manager or leader then check out Influence and Impact which starts in September. That's our three month limit women's leadership development programme, where we go deep on all of this stuff in terms of confidence, self doubt, impostor feeling, we also look at your personal leadership brand, how you can increase your impact. And obviously, we look alike influencing as well and how to get others to value and respect your opinion. That's a small group up to 20 of you working really closely with me and I would love to have you on that if that resonates with you. Most of the people who've been on it are podcast listeners. So I think you've got a great sense of how it's gonna feel being on that course. And on my website, you can download a PDF to share with your manager for either influence and impact or be bolder. That helps make the business case for why it is worth investing in you and sending you on those courses. So hope to see you on one of those at the end of the summer.

Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're not already subscribing, please do so so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if you want to go deeper on the topics that we talked about here on the podcast on confidence, self doubt, impostor feelings, increasing your influence being better at leading, then there are a few avenues that you can take it, the simplest is to get yourself a copy of my book closing the influence gap. If you love this podcast, it is crazy if you don't already own that book because it's got so much of the content from the podcast in a really accessible way and so many practical tools and strategies. It's basically a practical guide for women leaders who want to be heard in the workplace, you can grab a copy in any bookstore. Now, we also run a couple of open programmes. We run them once or twice a year each, there is Be Bolder, our four week confidence and assertiveness course, which is suitable for women at any level.

And then there's also Influence and Impact, which is our Women's Leadership Development Programme. That's a three month small group cohort working closely with me.

And then my team and I also work in house in organisations, sometimes that's working with women leaders, whether that's running a whole Women's Leadership Programme, or running one of our really popular master classes for women leaders. Sometimes it's working with early to mid career women, where we're often sharing our be bolder confidence and assertiveness programme.

We also offer gender neutral versions of that which are becoming increasingly popular because women aren't the only people experiencing confidence challenges.

And then finally, we do work with Allyship and supporting men to help bring about gender equity in the workplace as well. So if you are heading up a team, or a department or within your organisation, you're responsible for the people function or l&d. And we'd like to have a chat about how we can work together. I would absolutely love that.

And you can go to my website and book a call. Or if it's simpler, head on over to LinkedIn, let's connect and let's chat there. I would love to take working with you to the next level and help you to become an organisation that retains and develops and supports the talented women that work for you.