Carla Miller 00:00
Welcome to the influence and impact podcast for female leaders. My name is Carla Miller, and I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self doubt become brilliant influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. And I want to become the leadership BFF that you didn't know you were missing until now. In this episode, I'll be looking at how you can disagree with people who are more senior than you without it damaging your career.

Carla Miller 00:38
There are these unspoken rules about the world of work that most of us buy into without even questioning. And one of those rules is that we don't say no to our line manager, or disagree with senior stakeholders. As a result, people end up frustrated, overworked and demotivated because they've never learned how to challenge the thinking of senior stakeholders without challenging their authority. They've never learned how to effectively speak truth to power.

Carla Miller 01:08
In this episode of the influence and impact for female leaders podcast, I'll be showing you how you can disagree with someone in authority without negatively impacting your career, or your relationship with them. Whether you're dealing with your line manager, your senior management team or your board, you'll find practical insights you can use to learn how to challenge in a constructive and career building way. I've used and shared these tools for people operating at manager level, director level, chief exec level and even board level. So there's some really practical tools in here for you. So let's dive in.

Carla Miller 01:54
I have a bit of a split personality when it comes to challenging or authority. And as a youngster, I had a bit of a reputation for challenging authority despite being this really quiet, shy girl who was very eager to please and hated to do things wrong. I got thrown out of Crusaders, which is a church group and I got thrown out of guides for or they will call it being cheeky. But actually, what I was doing was challenging what someone in authority was saying when I didn't necessarily respect them. And I didn't think what they were saying was there.

Carla Miller 02:31
And later in my career, I was called a constructive agitator. So I clearly worked on my methods a bit by then, in that I was good at identifying how things could be improved and challenging the status quo, but in a way that felt positive and constructive. And then later, I've become a change maker, I used to go into organisations that weren't working and turn them around. And in order to do that, you'd have to be prepared to have those difficult discussions with people that are more senior than you.

Carla Miller 03:02
And when I coach people, I find that people tend to fall into two camps on this issue, camp.

Carla Miller 03:08
One is that you never say no. To people seeing the other you say yes to everything, basically. And you feel very uncomfortable in any way challenging the thinking of someone more senior than you.

Carla Miller 03:23
The other can, are perhaps you're in this club, where you are frequently challenging authority, but that's not really going that well for you. It's leading to tension in your relationships, potentially, it's damaging your career and your personal brand as well, because perhaps you're not doing it in quite the right way.

Carla Miller 03:45
So whichever camp you're in, I've got some advice to help you with today.

Carla Miller 03:51
So let's start with camp one where you are generally saying yes to everything. And there is this myth that you do have to say yes to everything. Yes to all the extra work, yes to the projects that actually you think a low priority, yes to decisions related to your area, which would negatively impact your team. And as a result, it's very easy to end up feeling quite disempowered, and with no sense of agency or control over your area.

Carla Miller 04:20
I feel like this is a hangover from that 80s style of very authoritarian directive leadership that should have been phased out just like the shoulder pads that went with it. And you do still see pockets of this. You do still see individuals in organisations that still have a very authoritarian style and would be extremely challenged if you said no to them, but as a general rule, any decent manager or leader will be open to different opinions if they are presented in a constructive positive and well thought through manner.

Carla Miller 04:56
And that's what we want to help you do today because it's spiring and impactful leaders are able to constructively challenge when they need to, they know how to influence upwards and sideways. And they're better able to negotiate their team's workload to persuade senior stakeholders to look again at decisions. And actually, they're better able to have a seat at that decision making table in the first place.

Carla Miller 05:22
And this challenging authority, or challenging people in authority, their thinking disagreeing with people more senior than you, it's absolutely a matter of influencing influencing is the way that you do that in a really positive way, and not a destructive or disruptive way.

Carla Miller 05:43
And it's one of the reasons I'm so passionate that every manager and leader needs to learn how to influence effectively if they want to do their job well, and if they want to develop in their careers.

Carla Miller 05:56
Now, just to be clear, I'm not talking about challenging their authority, I'm not talking about disrespecting the hierarchy at all, you can put forward a different viewpoint to a board member, chief exec director without disrespecting them, or disrespecting their authority as the ultimate decision maker. And so you have to do it in that context.

Carla Miller 06:22
And that's where camp two often falls down. If you are naturally prone to challenging authority, then you may actually be being seen as challenging somebody's actual authority, somebody's responsibility to make the decisions you may be seen to not be respecting hierarchy, their title them as a person.

Carla Miller 06:47
And it's very important that you do do that, that you're able to disagree without trying to overhaul the whole hierarchy of the organisation.

Carla Miller 06:59
What I'm going to share with you now are my nine strategies for success when it comes to disagreeing with people more senior than you. So what are some really practical tips or you hear?

Carla Miller 07:11
So the first one is make sure you actually do respect their authority, they have accountability, I have responsibility of the decisions that are being made and the consequences of those decisions. And they're often considering a number of different perspectives. And the more senior you are, the more likely it is that you can see the bigger picture because you have line of sight of more of the organisation.

Carla Miller 07:36
And it's worth remembering that it's much easier to argue for a case from your perspective, and really believe you're right, then it is to see all of the perspectives and have ultimate responsibility for the decision. And I learned that when I moved into a chief exec role as a director of fundraising and marketing, I was convinced I was right, I thought I was seeing the bigger picture. But I just knew what the right decision was. When I moved into a chief exec role, I realised things really aren't that simple. I didn't always know what the right decision was, I didn't always have the data, but I needed. And so it's really important that you acknowledge that ultimately, whether you agree with it or not, the decision sits with this person more senior than you, that has to be the underlying context of the conversation you're having. Because if they feel like you don't respect that hierarchy, you don't respect the decisions that they're making, respect them as a person, you are just going to alienate them. And it's almost impossible to influence someone that you have already alienated. So that's number one, make sure you actually do respect their authority.

Carla Miller 08:46
Point number two is to build your relationship with them. So I have this six step model of influencing. And the first couple of steps are related to building a good relationship with the people you want to influence and understanding where they're coming from. If someone likes you, if you have built some kind of rapport or some kind of connection, if they feel like you do actually like them and care about them as a person, then they are just more inclined to listen to you. And if you have built some form of relationship with them, then you will have gathered some information about them, which will enable you to communicate what you're trying to communicate in their language rather than in your language. And that's absolutely crucial for influencing. So step two, build your relationship with these people.

Carla Miller 09:39
Step three, pick your battles. So don't disagree with everything that's not constructive. That's just really annoying, and you definitely don't want to get a reputation as somebody who disagrees with everything. If you disagree with everything that is happening above you, you're in the wrong organisation for you. The fit just isn't there. It's not aligned with your values, it's time to start looking somewhere else. And so an equally if you disagree with everything that your manager is doing, then I think it's, it's time to take a step back and think about whether you want to work for this person or not. And if you do want to keep working for them, resetting your attitude towards them. Because if in your head, you're thinking them wrong, and they don't know what they're doing, then again, it's going to be almost impossible to influence them and to succeed in your role. So pick your battles identify, is this something that is worth using up some of my social capital on? Is this a battle where if I win it, it's really going to be worth it? And is it a battle that I can win, there may be some things that actually you feel quite strongly about, but you know that all the cards are stacked against you, you know that there is no way that someone's going to change their mind, in which case, you can put your your point forward, and you absolutely have the right to do that. But I wouldn't go all out on pushing that point, if you know that you cannot win that point. When it comes to disagreeing, pick the things where actually you have got a chance to, to win, to persuade them and pick the things where it makes a real difference. If you do.

Carla Miller 11:22
Okay, point four be solution focused wherever possible, I am not encouraging you to complain, I am not encouraging you to just say a flat no to everything that your line manager, your chief exec your board members are asking you to do. What I am encouraging you to do is to be confident in putting forward alternative solutions, to solve problems, to be confident in reframing ways of looking at things. And so we've got 4/5. So useful phrases that you could use to do that.

Carla Miller 11:57
One useful phrase is to start by saying, if we looked at this another way, and then explain your alternative viewpoint, you can even say, can I offer an alternative perspective? And that asking it as a question, it's actually really hard, it's hard to say no, I don't want to hear your alternative perspective that you just nicely asked if you can offer, that's a really nice way of doing it.

Carla Miller 12:23
Another thing you could say is I have an alternative option I'd like to run past you, would you be open to hearing it? Would you like to hear it, those softeners at the end are about respecting authority, because if you just say, I have an alternative option, in that way, that does not inspire people to listen to you. If you say I've got an alternative option I'd like to run past you, then people are open to that. So it's about not putting people's backs up in the way that you're communicating.

Carla Miller 12:57
Another thing to do when you're disagreeing with someone more senior than you is trying to avoid the word. But so I hear a lot of people say yes, but and then make their completely different point. What you want to do more of is to say yes, and so that you'll seem to be building on what they've already said, you seem to be acknowledging that there is value in what they've said. And you're seen as much more constructed. So for example, when you have a brainstorm, you're encouraged to take an idea that's there and say yes, and build on it. But it also works well, when you're my manager, or a senior decision maker or a board member makes a point that you disagree with to be able to say yes, and we could also could benefit from looking at it from this perspective, or yes, and an alternative way to look at that could be again, it just smooths the path for that discussion.

Carla Miller 14:01
But point seven there will be times when decisions really matter. And you are losing the argument when someone in decision making role as a whole more senior than you has or is making a decision that is really going to affect you and your team, and you absolutely know is wrong, and you're probably not going to change their mind. But this one is a real deal breaker.

Carla Miller 14:33
And so I have a great phrase that you can use in that situation. And and it's a phrase I have used in the past and I'm talking a little bit a little bit about that in a moment. But basically the phrases, I wouldn't be doing my job properly if I didn't make sure you understood the potential consequences of that decision. So again, you are still respecting the fact it is their decision to make but you are making sure but they are making it from an informed basis. And they you have done your job in terms of reflecting the consequences.

Carla Miller 15:07
So I want to use this in a room of a couple of 100 women who had come from all over the world, and they were trustees, it was a strange setup, but they were trustees have an international organisation. And they were making decisions about fundraising, targets and budgets going forward. And I had been brought on as an interim, working couple of days a week to help to grow the fundraising of the organisation, I had put forward, my budget and my suggestions. And what they wanted to do was completely ignore it and basically double the target. And they were absolutely dead set on that. And I was really quite astounded by the conversations that were going on in the room. From my perspective, I'm sure they had their own way of looking at it. And all these conversations were going on, and it really wasn't my place to speak, I had presented my bid, and it was time for their discussion. But it was clear where the decision was going. I think that there were other people in the room, I colleagues who did not feel as comfortable speaking truth to power as I did do have more to lose in that situation, because I was an interim. And I used exactly that phrase, I asked to speak, I stood up. And I basically said, I wouldn't be doing my job properly. If I didn't make sure you understood the potential consequences of that decision. Because the consequences of that particular decision were huge, they within a budget based on money that wasn't going to come in, they were going to leave themselves with a massive hole in the budget and out of pocket. And it was going to be absolutely disastrous. I can't say that I was particularly popular at that board meeting. However, the decision did go my way in the end. And I was really relieved about that. Because I would have felt like I hadn't done my job properly if I hadn't made them understand the flaws in the plan that they had, because I was coming with with expertise and had spent a lot of time developing those plans. And they weren't talking about tweaking them, they were talking about completely ignoring them. And I got a lot of respect actually also from people in the room and from my colleagues for that ability to speak truth to power and in a way that people would listen to. So if you're really stuck, that's a good phrase to use.

Carla Miller 17:30
My eighth point is that you don't need to apologise for having a different opinion. So often I will see people disagreeing with someone more senior than them. And they'll start by saying I'm sorry, but I don't agree. I know that you need to apologise for having a different decision. You've been hired for your expertise. It's about putting forward that opinion with ease and grace so that it doesn't create tension. You don't need to apologise for the content of it, you just need to deliver it in a way that doesn't create tension and is seen as helping to move the conversation forward.

Carla Miller 18:07
And that brings me to my final point point nine tone is everything. No one wants to be known as spiky, negative, challenging or difficult. a troublemaker. I think sometimes some people whose hearts are in the right place who are making brilliant points can get labelled that way. And unfortunately, I do see that happen to women a lot more often. I think that we can if we are labelled as aggressive, it is seen as a very negative thing. Whilst it is not necessarily seen as a negative thing. In men, I am generally not a fan of being aggressive anyway, by I am a fan of making your point in a strong manner. And so, tone and hopefully I've given you some examples here that give you an indication of tone.

Carla Miller 18:59
So you're not going for Super apologetic and grovelling as if you have no right to have an opinion. But you're also not going for challenging them in their authority, you're going for constructively challenging the thinking that's going on.

Carla Miller 19:13
There are also some things that you can do long term when it comes to setting the boundaries and disagreeing with people more senior than you. One of them is if you are someone who is always saying yes to everything your manager throws at you, and you're finding yourself overwhelmed and overworked. Start by just setting some clear boundaries. So start by not automatically making your response. Yes. However, think about it. You could say Can I think about how that sits with what else I've got going on? And can I think about the practicalities behind that and then come back to you to discuss it further. And just start setting boundaries more clearly. Generally, for example, don't respond to emails that are sent at night. They want to send you an email at night they want to work at night. Well That's up to them. But you don't have to respond.

Carla Miller 20:03
So you don't have to be at the immediate beck and call of your managers at all times to be doing your job. Well. If you are being asked to take on work, and you genuinely don't think that you or your team can take on that workload, a sentence that I have used in the past, and I recommend others use is that sounds great. I've got these other priorities. Where does it fit? With Oprah's priorities? Can we discuss that so that you and the person handing the work to you are in agreement about where it fits? You can also say that's great. My team is at capacity at the moment we're working flat out at the moment. So if we take that on, what would you suggest that we put on hold in order to be able to do that. And again, tone is really important on that one.

Carla Miller 20:53
But the message is, we are not an endless resource. Because I think what I see happening a lot is that people at middle management level, and sometimes people that senior management level, are treated as if they are an endless resource. And this work just filters down to you. You say yes to it all. You want to protect your team, and you can't make your team work super hard. So it all just sits and piles up on you. And then you're either exhausted and overworked, or you feel like you're failing, because you've set yourself up for an impossible task.

Carla Miller 21:25
And so it is a really useful skill to be able to push back upwards to be able to say, this isn't a limitless resource. So how do we work with the resource that we've got, you also do need to be able to back that up. So you do need to be able to track or map in some way, the fact that you're at capacity. If your manager does not trust or believe that you're actually all working hard, then that can be quite hard to have that discussion. So you need to be able to evidence what you're saying.

Carla Miller 21:55
And then long term, there are more influencing strategies. These are things that we go deep on within my influence and impact framework. So we look at how can you partner with your boss, not necessarily an equal partner. But when you partner with your boss, new things become possible in terms of your relationship, we also look at the currencies of influence that you bring to the table.

Carla Miller 22:15
And then finally, one of the things that we go deep on within the framework is that fear of conflicts. And I've not really touched on that here because it is a whole episode, in itself, basically, but many of us have a fear of conflict of the tension around conflict, we get our value and our sense of worth from the people around us. And so potentially creating any conflict around that any negative feedback feels very threatening and unsafe to us.

Carla Miller 22:46
And one of the things I teach in my programme is that your job title comes with authority. So even if you don't feel like you have natural authority, or naturally the ability to challenge things, sometimes it is your job to challenge upwards, downwards sideways. Sometimes, that's what it looks like to do your job well. And your job title gives you the authority to do that. So, like usual, I've packed a lot into a short episode, you might want to take notes for this one. But I hope it will be helpful because like I said at the beginning, if we never say no, it is really easy to become overworked, frustrated, and to lose that sense of agency. And even if you are a really motivated person, that chips away at you. And if you are sitting there thinking I'm usually really motivated, I feel so demotivated and that's not just COVID related, it could be that it's time for you to reset some boundaries, and to start to renegotiate decision by decision how your workload is given to you and your team. So, enjoy those strategies. I would love to know how you get on with using them.

Carla Miller 24:07
Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're not already subscribing, please do so so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if you want to go deeper on the topics that we talk about here on the podcast on confidence, self doubt, impostor feelings, increasing your influence being better at leading, then there are a few avenues that you can take. The simplest is to get yourself a copy of my book, closing the influence gap. If you love this podcast, it is crazy if you don't already own that book, because it's got so much of the content from the podcast in a really accessible way and so many practical tools and strategies. It's basically a practical guide for women leaders who want to be heard in the workplace. You can grab a copy in any bookstore. Now we also run a couple of open programmes We run them once or twice a year each. There is the bolder, our four week confidence and assertiveness course, which is suitable for women at any level. And then there's also influence and impact, which is our Women's Leadership Development Programme. That's a three month small group cohort working closely with me. And then my team and I also work in house in organisations. Sometimes that's working with women leaders, whether that's running a whole Women's Leadership Programme, or running one of our really popular master classes for women leaders. Sometimes it's working with early to mid career women, where we're often sharing our be bolder confidence and assertiveness programme. We also offer gender neutral versions of that which are becoming increasingly popular because women aren't the only people experiencing confidence challenges. And then finally, we do work with Ally ship and supporting men to help bring about gender equity in the workplace as well. So if you are heading up a team, or a department or within your organisation, you're responsible for the people function or l&d. And we'd like to have a chat about how we can work together. I would absolutely love that. And you can go to my website and book a call. Or if it's simpler, head on over to LinkedIn, let's connect and let's chat there. I would love to take working with you to the next level and help you to become an organisation that retains and develops and supports the talented women that work for you.