Carla Miller [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the Influence and Impact Podcast for female leaders. My name's Carla Miller, and I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self doubt, become brilliant influencing, and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader, and I want to become the leadership b f f a thought you didn't know you were missing until now.

Speaker B [00:00:29]:

Whether you're new to that head of team role where you're now managing managers, Or whether you've been leading and managing other managers for a while, there are 3 essential things to remember because managing other managers is not the same as managing more junior members of staff. They often have a lot on their plate, and it's actually a really difficult level to be at because they're responsible for the team performance or delivery. They've also need to support and develop their team, and they've got their own workload. And many of them will also be spending quite a lot of their time and energy feeling responsible for their team's happiness. So how do you best support them in that? How do you best empower them? How do you help keep their performance on track and keep them developing and learning and growing? Well, that's what we're gonna talk about in today's episode. So if supporting and managing managers is on your mind, then do head over to carlamillertraining.comforward/earlybird To get your name on the early bird list for our upcoming offer, which is all around supporting managers, We're gonna be providing all sorts of things within this new offer, including peer coaching calls on a regular basis, Monthly leadership training, monthly well-being sessions, an online community, and partners to support particular groups within the workplace. It is gonna be awesome. It's going to help managers and leaders to feel supported, To keep learning and growing, to be able to support others and develop their own coaching skills, and able to manage their well-being during times of change and stress.

Speaker B [00:02:34]:

And it feels like there's a lot of times of change and stress going on. So to find out more about that, go over to carlamiller training.comforward/ Early bird. It doesn't commit you to anything. It just puts you on the list expressing an interest and saying you'd like to hear more when the information is ready. Okay. So what are the 3 essential things to remember when you're managing managers? Number 1, Their management style may be different from yours, and that's okay. In fact, it's more than okay, but I think Human nature is to expect everyone to think and communicate and also lead In the way that makes sense to us. And actually, there is no one right way to manage or lead.

Speaker B [00:03:27]:

And this is something we talk about within influence and impact when we look at everyone's personal leadership brand. So just because somebody is approaching a management situation in a different way from how you would approach it, Don't automatically assume that just because you've been doing this longer that your way is better because They need to learn how to be the best manager and leader they can be their way. It is no good to you and no good to them If they end up being a crap version of you because that's what they feel the expectation is, because you've got this set idea about what managing And leading looks like. You've probably got very different personalities. You've probably got very different direct reports. They need a different approach. Some of you might be going, and some of you might be going, well, yeah, obviously. But are you actually having those conversations openly? So are you actually normalizing the fact that there are different ways to manage and lead and normalising the fact that there are different ways to achieve the same thing.

Speaker B [00:04:40]:

It's really worth starting to have these discussions with them, starting to effectively start to coach them on developing their own management and leadership style. So get curious. If they do something in a way you wouldn't have done it, then get curious and ask in a nonconfrontational way, In the context of this discussion, why did you take that approach? I'm curious. Empower them To find their own style of management that works for them and their team where they are right now. Now there may well be some in-depth coaching to to do around that. I quite often see people who've had a particular approach to managing and leading in 1 organization that's gone down really well, And then they moved to another organization, and it's just not going quite so well, or where they've had a team where everyone bonded and it was fantastic, and they operated in a certain way. And then there were some new members of the team. The dynamics changed, but they haven't updated their management approach.

Speaker B [00:05:41]:

So having that conversation with them around reflecting on what do your team need from you at the moment do you think? And what kind of leader do you want to be? And what kind of leader do you think you are at the moment? Now I'm assuming a good relationship here and that you created some psychological safety so that they feel that they can be open with you. But if you have these conversations with them, And it not only normalises the fact that there are many different ways of managing and leading, but it means that you can get them to develop their thinking and their Skills and their approaches around supporting their team. And you might do this with them individually, or it might be something you talk about in management team meetings if you have a Team of managers that gather together. Now for some of you, that might be totally obvious, but I Coached a chief exec a couple of years ago, fantastic chief exec, but actually had a really, really narrow version of what leadership should look like. And it was the version of leadership that was celebrated in the organizations that she had basically grown up in over the years, that she had excelled within, and she'd moved to a new organization that didn't have quite the same culture. But to her, that's what a leader was, and it was actually quite a, directive approach to leadership, very, very straight talking. And she really wanted her direct reports To be exhibiting these signs of leadership as she saw them, and they actually had just very different leadership styles. They were fantastic leaders.

Speaker B [00:07:22]:

They were just very different leaders, Some of them. And so it was really useful to have that conversation around different styles and the fact that there are different ways to do the same thing. It can be really easy to want to sit as a as a manager in that place of wanting to be right. You know? Kind of, I do talk about stepping into your authority, but that doesn't mean you always actually have the right answer to everything. And I think being able to be open minded and go, okay. I wouldn't have done it that I wonder why they took that approach. What can I learn from the people I manage as much as they're learning From me? And then also be conscious about what you're modeling to them. So it's all very well saying well-being's really important.

Speaker B [00:08:05]:

But, actually, if you're never asking them about team's well-being and you're just really drilling them on performance, well, then your actions and your words are not Align. So the questions you are asking them, show them what's important to you, and that is what they will probably prioritize as a result. So their management style may be different from yours. That's okay. In fact, it's probably a really, really good thing. It's just about embracing it. Now the 2nd essential thing to remember when you're managing other managers is that you want to help them feel trusted. This is the biggest issue that comes up in terms of tension between direct reports is that people don't necessarily feel trusted to get on with their job.

Speaker B [00:08:58]:

So there are a few key things that can help you with this. One of them is when you are delegating to people who know what they're doing, you just need to delegate The end result that you want or anything really, really vital in terms of what you want and how it's done. What you don't want to do is to say to someone, I'd like you to do this task, and I'd like you to do it this way, if They're an experienced person. That's really, really helpful for someone more junior. I don't think that is actually micromanaging of someone more junior. I think it's hopefully training them, and you won't be doing that with them on an ongoing basis. But with someone experienced, They do not want to have to try and do tasks your way and second guess how you might do it and put it in front of you, nervous that they haven't got it quite right Because actually, they've done it in a way that doesn't make complete sense to them. They need to be able to decide how to do things their way.

Speaker B [00:09:59]:

Now you might want to have an interim step, which is go away, think about it, come back and let me know how you'd approach it. And you might have a little bit of feedback on that. But effectively, when you're delegating to senior people, do not micromanage. Do not tell them exactly how You want it done. You can be clear on outcomes and deadlines and accountability and communication. Those are all really great things, And I cover those within my leadership training. But delegate the results, not the step by step of how it's done. Because they can't do it your way probably as well as you can.

Speaker B [00:10:39]:

Or they might be able to get the end result as well as you can by doing it their way. So avoid micromanaging, particularly when it comes to delegation. Another thing you can do is discuss with them how you can add value to their work. So particularly if you are now managing specialists who know more about their area than you do. So at one point, you were probably a specialist, When you reach a certain level, you become more of a generalist. In that, you start to line manage people who know more about their area than you do. And by the time you are a chief exec, you are the ultimate generalist because you're responsible for a whole organization, and you can't actually do all of those jobs yourself. So it's really good to have a conversation with them around how you can add value to their work.

Speaker B [00:11:26]:

We're gonna talk in a minute about how you can help them, But this might be about you navigating the organization for them, for example, or Acting as a sounding board on things or making sure that something is on the chief exec's radar. It might be Getting them access to training. There are there are many different things. It might be that sort of emotional support, and actually they just wanna tell you what they've achieved or what's on their mind or how the team are doing and talk that through with them. Assume that you can add some value because you're in your job for a reason, but discuss how you can add value to their work. One thing that sometimes comes up there is if you are Managing someone, and maybe you're new, they're new, or you're just not totally sure on their performance, I'm not suggesting that you give them completely free rain. Because ultimately, you will be held responsible for their performance, their team's performance. So you do need to know what's going on, and you need to have parameters set In terms of when you will get involved or when there's an issue.

Speaker B [00:12:36]:

So this is where agreeing KPIs is really important. And this is just a really basic thing. If you've got someone in a role, they need to know what their objectives are. They need to know what the priorities I'm really not a fan of letting people be in the job for 6 months before being clear with them about how you're measuring their success and what's important and what you want them to do. I think it's a bit lazy, actually. I think that people need that level of guidance in order to be able to perform well when they're new in a job. So agree KPIs with them so that you can check-in. And then if they're if they're not meeting those KPIs, well, then you start to get more involved.

Speaker B [00:13:13]:

If they're meeting those KPIs just fine, that's great. And when I say KPIs, don't forget to think about things beyond pure delivery. So think about how they do things as well. So you've probably worked with someone who Technically, he was really good at their job, but was an absolute nightmare to work with. And if you haven't built that into the conversation, well, then people don't know That good performance isn't just delivering well. It's also about how you do it, and other people's experience of working with you and working collaboratively, etcetera. And then another thing that will make them feel trusted is Just giving them a chance to shine. So those meetings that you're both going to, do you actually need to go to those meetings as well.

Speaker B [00:14:02]:

And those meetings that you're going to, they're not going to where you're presenting an element of their work, well, could they come and present it themselves. Can you help them to get that visibility, that exposure? Can you advocate for them and champion them? There's enough glory to go round. I think it's a really fantastic thing to make sure that the people around you know how well your team members are performing. It reflects well on you. So help them to feel trusted. And the third one is to ask them what support they need for you. And there's a few different factors to this. The first one, 1st of those factors is around modeling psychological safety.

Speaker B [00:14:46]:

So it takes an evolved leader To do this, but the best leaders are able to ask their direct reports, what do I do that supports you in your role? How do I make things harder? And how could I support you more effectively? Because we all have blind spots, you will, hopefully, be doing lots of things that support them. You will Also be doing at least 1 thing that makes their job harder, whether that's coming out of a meeting stressed, coming over to their desk, or sending that email that kind of passes that stress Along, whether that's those emails that you're sending, at 4:30 PM on a Friday, with something that's urgent to do, whether it's that when you are going through a lot at home or you had a bad night's sleep, You go really quiet, and they assume that there's something that they're doing wrong. As leaders, our impact on others is is amplified, and we do all have these blind spots that we are probably not aware of. And it's actually a real gift for someone to share that with you, but give them the opportunity to. Otherwise, They're complaining when in fact, what we want to do is understand better the impact that we are having on others, in particular, I direct reports all the people that work within their teams. Maybe you're fantastic with your direct reports, but actually, their team members feel like you don't really see or hear or value them. You know, who knows what it is? And then ask, how could I support you more effectively? So some people will really struggle to or would just be too super, super nice to actually tell you how you make things harder, But they might be able to come up with some suggestions about how you could support them more effectively. Now the whole point of creating psychological safety is that they are safe to speak truthfully, to speak truth to power, essentially, which is what you are within this dynamic.

Speaker B [00:16:50]:

So what you want to do is to be receptive to that feedback. Now it's likely you'll probably need some time to think about it, And you might wanna say that beforehand. You might wanna say, what I'd love to do is just is hear you out. I'd like to go away and reflect on it. And then we can have the Conversation kind of the next bit of the conversation together, if that's okay. You don't wanna be defensive. That will make this conversation more damaging than if you'd never had it, basically. You don't wanna be justifying why you do things.

Speaker B [00:17:20]:

You wanna be a fantastic Listener, open minded, and really have that growth mindset of all feedback is gonna make you better. Doesn't mean that you won't have an emotional reaction to it. Just don't have that emotional reaction right there in front of them. Go and have it. Someone else, somewhere else. Deal with it. Again, we talk about that within Be Boulder, how to respond rather than react. So that's the first thing.

Speaker B [00:17:44]:

Model psychological safety and ask, what can I do that Support you in your what do I do that supports you in your role? How do I make things harder? How could I support you more effectively? And then the second thing to remember is that Even if they are experienced managers and they don't need you to hold their hands, they don't need you to go through their To do list with them on a weekly or fortnightly basis. They probably do still need support. It might just look different. So they may need a coach more than they need a manager. If they're experienced or they're specialists, Yeah. They don't wanna tell you everything on their to do list. They want a sounding board in all likelihood. Like I said, they want you to navigate internal politics.

Speaker B [00:18:27]:

Sometimes they can influence effectively themselves. Sometimes they need you to do it for them and to advocate for them and their team. Now the other thing to look at is, are they overwhelmed? Are they really tired? Are they heading towards burnout? So many people I speak to right now have too much on their plate. Way, way too much on their plate. And there's this culture of never saying no to anything. So as managers and leaders, we need to do our bit to help to change that. Now you may not be the leader at the top of the organization. You might be, or you might be on that senior leadership team, in which case you can really have to shift the needle on this.

Speaker B [00:19:08]:

But just trying to establish, is there too much on their plate? Is there too much on the team's plate? Maybe one of the things that you do that doesn't help them is you say yes to everything that comes from above, or you have a 1000000 different new ideas that you're excited about that then they have to Respond to or run with. So check-in with them and use your own assessment as well. It's much better to do less things and do them well than to do a little bit of everything, not very well, be splitting your Mental attention and focus between all those things and feel like you're on a a hamster wheel. And particularly if you've got managers that are newer to managing, What you may find they do is they say yes to everything that you ask them to do, but they're really conscious of their team and how much their team have got on their plate. And so They're taking a lot of it on board themselves. Also, get to know them. You may be able to coach them in this way as well, in that they may be Setting really high expectations of themselves. We had a Be Boulder session this morning, the first one.

Speaker B [00:20:12]:

And we were looking at those expectations we set of ourselves To be perfect, to never get anything wrong, to always know the answer, over preparing for meetings, all of this side of things. And it could be that they are overworking in one way or another in order to prove to you, the organization, or themselves that they deserve to be in that role. And you can talk that through with them. You can Send them on something like a course like Be Boulder or work with a coach to help them work on that. You can also model role model How to do things without overworking as well. And then the final point is they may still need training. So sometimes we think, like, management Training's a one and done. Oh, you've gone on your 2 day introduction to management course.

Speaker B [00:21:00]:

You are now sorted. Oh, you went on your 5 day leadership course. Spent a lot of money on that. You should never need any more leadership training again. But actually, and you will know this from your own experience, if we just think back, Even, like, 5 years ago, what we expected from managers and leaders was actually much less than we expect now. The role has become more challenging and for good reasons in many cases. So we've now got Hybrid, and remote working. We've now got much more understanding about inclusivity in the workplace.

Speaker B [00:21:43]:

We know more about well-being and mental health and the need for flexibility. Like, all of these things Are great. They are hopefully making workplaces better places to work. But your managers, And I'm sure you as well are still trying to do all the things they've always had to do, get their team to perform, get the results, perform themselves. Like, no one has said, I'll tell you what, we'll take our foot off the gas on the performance to focus on this other side of things. And many managers at junior levels Still have a lot in terms of personal workload and things to deliver as well, which lessens a little bit As you go upwards. Now some research just came out from the Chartered Management Institute that says the vast majority of managers in UK businesses and organizations seem to end up in management roles almost by chance. So around 80% of people promoted into management positions No training in how to manage or lead.

Speaker B [00:22:46]:

They say we're a nation of what they call accidental managers. Now I really hope you've had some training. I really hope your managers are getting some training. There are lots of quite cost effective options out there to help with that. But it it is really important that that they do keep learning and growing. And I'm not about learning theoretical stuff that doesn't help them. I'm talking about really practical learning that enables them to do their job better. And if you listened at the beginning, then you'll know What I'm trying to create is something that does that and gives them support that maybe you don't always have the time to give, and CodeTeaches are the independence of supporting each other in peer to peer support.

Speaker B [00:23:30]:

So I'm really, really excited about that new management offer, but other management offers do exist. So Just think about what training do they need? That might be I don't like the term soft skills. That might be interpersonal Skills. It might be around confidence or influencing or leadership. It might be technical Skills. There are all sorts of different things out there, but you want to help them to keep developing and learning and growing and having that That growth mindset. Okay. So to recap the 3 things.

Speaker B [00:24:06]:

Firstly, their management style may be different from yours and that's Okay or it's even good. And by embracing that, what you're doing is giving them the freedom to lead their way. The second one is around helping them feel trusted. And we looked at how to delegate effectively and avoid micromanaging, How to give them a chance to shine, how to use KPIs effectively. And that will enable them to perform their role without constant Anxiety that they're not trusted. And then the 3rd piece is around asking what support they need from you. So having that conversation that creates psychological safety, Like, finding out what you're doing that isn't helping them and talking about the support that they need, Whether that's training or coaching, or more of your time shadowing, whatever it is, That will help them to thrive in their role and normalizes ongoing learning and a growth mindset. So I hope that you've taken at least 1 or 2 practical ideas from this that you can Share with your managers that can help to improve the relationship you have with your managers.

Speaker B [00:25:19]:

Now the fact that you're listening to this podcast shows me already that you are that you care, that you want the best for your team. So I'm sure you're already doing a great job. These tweaks might just help To make your job and their job a bit easier. Have a great week, and take care.

Speaker C [00:25:38]:

Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're not already subscribing, please do so so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if you want to go deeper on the topics that we talk about here on the podcast, on confidence, self doubt, imposter feelings, increasing your influence, being better at leading, then there are a few avenues that you can take. The simplest is to get yourself a copy of my book, Closing the influence gap. If you love this podcast, it is crazy if you don't already own that book because it's got much of the content from the podcast in a really accessible way and so many practical tools and strategies. It's basically a practical guide for women leaders who want to be heard in the workplace. You can grab a copy in any bookstore. Now we also run a couple of open programs.

Speaker C [00:26:28]:

We run them once or twice a year each. There is Be Boulder, our 4 week confidence and Certiveness course, which is suitable for women at any level. And then there's also influence and impact, which is our women's leadership development program. That's a 3 month small group cohort working closely with me. And then my team and I also work in house in organizations. Sometimes that's working with women leaders, whether that's running a whole women's leadership program or running one of our really popular master classes for women leaders. Sometimes it's working with early to mid career women where we're often sharing our Be Boulder confidence and assertiveness program. We also offer gender neutral versions of that, which are becoming increasingly popular because women aren't the only people experiencing confidence challenges.

Speaker C [00:27:18]:

And then finally, we do work with allyship and supporting men to help bring about gender equity in the workplace as well. So if you are heading up a team or a department within your organization, you're responsible for the people function or l and d, and would like to have a chat about how we can work together, I would absolutely love that. And you can go to my website and book a call. Or if it's simpler, head on over to LinkedIn. Let's connect and let's chat there. I would love to take working with you To the next level and help you to become an organization that retains and develops and supports the talented women that work for you.