Would you like to create a culture within your team that allows everyone to thrive? And would you like to add coaching to your toolkit as a manager? This week, I'm joined by Jo Wright, author of, and switch off now if you've got small children listening because the book has a swear word in it, author of no more shit managers, 7 steps to a coaching culture. Joe will be talking about how to create a coaching culture within your team or organization, and why coaching conversations between managers and direct reports make so much difference. We cover how to create space for quality conversations when you're feeling overwhelmed, Why organizations need to embrace slowing down in order to speed up. How feedback is key to a coaching culture, and Joe's 7 Step Framework for creating that coaching culture. This is the Influence and Impact Podcast for women leaders, helping you confidently navigate the ups and downs of leadership, and feel less alone on your journey as a leader. My name's Carla Miller. I've been coaching leaders for the past 15 years, and I'm your leadership coach. I'm here to remind you of the value you bring to your organization to help you believe in yourself, and to share practical tools and insights from myself and my brilliant guests that will help you succeed in your career.

Carla Miller [00:01:27]:
Now before we roll the interview, let me tell you a little bit about Jo. As cofounder of Coaching Culture and best selling author of her book, Jo is a passionate advocate for many benefits a coaching culture creates. With nearly 30 years experience in leading and coaching teams, and as a professionally accredited coach, Jo is a true coaching champion on a mission to inspire people to think differently about the power of coaching. She's often to be found sharing insights on how the power of coaching can be used to create high performing teams, build trust, shape leadership styles, and raise performance in the workplace. She interviews industry leaders for coaching cultures learn cast series, and her book, No More Ship Managers, became an Amazon bestseller on its 1st day of release in November 2023. Now you will hear throughout the interview, Joe's huge passion for coaching, which I really admire and is very contagious. And as you can imagine, I am very much a fan of creating a coaching culture because I see the benefits that coaching can bring. Now if you listen to the episode and think I really could do with developing my toolkit as a manager and learning some more coaching tools that I can use, and how to have a coaching mindset when it comes to conversations with my team and direct reports, then I have great news for you.

Carla Miller [00:02:52]:
Because in our new community, women leading, which is coming very, very soon, We are going to be having some specific training sessions on coaching skills for managers and leaders. So there's a really easy solution for you there. And Joe's company also provide, online coaching training, which I think is done through your company signing up for that. So you can find out more about that on Joe's 2 websites. So let's find out a bit more about how you can create a coaching culture within your

Jo Wright [00:03:32]:
team.

Carla Miller [00:03:33]:
So welcome to the show, Jo. I'd love to find out a little bit more about what has led you to write this book and your background when it comes to creating a coaching culture.

Jo Wright [00:03:43]:
Oh, I've spoken to so many people as part of being, part of coaching culture. And we built a community. We'd written lots of magazines. And actually, the book felt a natural next step, to to all of that. And, we had a podcast. And we'd also done a little, you know, a little framework document. You know, one of them sort of free ebook download, this kind of thing. And actually, we decided, you know what, it'd be a great idea to write a book.

Jo Wright [00:04:14]:
But I just didn't understand how to write a book. So I I went about learning how to write a book, and pulled it all together. And so far, yeah, the feedback's been great. My background into building a coaching culture is very much through working within organizations who've, I suppose, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Actually, where where were things really, really great? Where were things not as good? And you could see actually what was missing. So it wasn't just learning from everyone that was all amazing, where you had a fabulous culture. It was actually learning from the not so great cultures. And and and it was my coaching qualification that was the real trigger to go and do something more on a large scale.

Jo Wright [00:04:55]:
And to realize when I was, having coaching conversations, I felt like I was sprinkling a bit of fairy dust on individuals. And it was like, how do we get this out to the masses? This this is this is game changing. This is life changing. This is criminal that it's just for a few people here and there having better conversations. How do we get this out to the masses? And and I suppose it was the the creation of the business coaching culture that really got us, you know, me and, the coaching culture business much deeper into helping organizations to build a coaching culture. So, yeah, that was kind that's kind of a potted history. But, you know, it's it's really been about working with people who are exactly doing great things and those that aren't, and learning from them and capturing it in the essence of a book. And it's something I'm really passionate about.

Jo Wright [00:05:48]:
I mean, really, really passionate about, really wanting to help managers be better and have the opportunity to you know, I just think when you're a leader and a manager, you're in such a privileged position of being able to influence somebody's role, career and life. And, actually, so so so do the best you can and and work out how you can be better every day because you're, you know, while you're helping others, you're helping yourself. You're growing. And and for me, I often say there are just no downsides to building a coaching culture. There are just no downsides to building your own capability to have better skilled conversations. And and all of that just rolls up into making work a better place for people to go. And not just for people there today, but for people, you know, for their children who are gonna be in the workplace in 10 years' time. You know, this is about building for the future as well as for today.

Jo Wright [00:06:49]:
So I'm so passionate about it. And I, you know, all I really need is a branded soapbox, to be honest, Carla, just to talk about it so much. Because leaders and line managers have such an important role to play. And and they're often promoted through technical capability, through, you know, being great at the job that they were brought into, and then suddenly they find themselves being promoted into a people management role without having been given any guidance, support, development on what that could look like. Oh, I could talk about this all day, really, because it is so important to to really help people. And I and I know I've I've titled the book. It's a cheeky title. And that was deliberately so.

Jo Wright [00:07:32]:
It was deliberately so. And the title, you know, I knew it would be provocative. I knew it would grab people's attention. It says it how it is. But actually, the book isn't, you know, isn't all just about a cheeky title. It's actually a book, you know, of hope, inspiration, practical guidance, humor. You know, we gotta have fun and laugh at some of the stories that actually are real. But actually, for me, it's more about giving people the practical tools and support to be able to go about doing something about it in their organization.

Jo Wright [00:08:06]:
And it's interesting because while the the book is absolutely out and out aimed at people who are helping think through how to build the the culture, you I'm also getting a lot of people, ordering block orders of books to give to their managers as part of management and leadership development programs. So, yeah, lots going on there.

Carla Miller [00:08:28]:
I love your passion, Jo. So we're gonna be talking about what individual managers can do and what people can do to influence the culture of an organization. But let's start by defining it. What is a coaching culture?

Jo Wright [00:08:44]:
Well, I've got an official definition that we at Coaching Culture have created. So I could share that, but I can also talk around it of what it really means. You know, so we talk about a coaching culture is a place where authentic leaders and managers help people to grow, thrive, and perform through effective conversations, honest feedback, underpinned by trust. So all of that is, what is a coaching culture? It's it's an you'll know you're in one when you've got an organisation where people are having positive conversations. And when I mean positive conversations, that doesn't mean to say they're just all nice and everybody's happy. And, you know, these can be supportive conversations. They can be development conversations. They can be challenging conversations.

Jo Wright [00:09:25]:
But they're all with the intention of helping people to be better, to grow, to learn, develop. Feedback is something that happens regularly. It's respected and expected. It's not feared. It's not, you know, oh, no. I'm gonna get some feedback. I'm terrified. It's actually welcomed.

Jo Wright [00:09:44]:
It's embraced. And development opportunities are, you know, in in abundance. And that doesn't mean to say I'm going on loads of different courses. That is about giving people the time and space to be able to think and reflect and to sit down and actually think, you know, what went well there? What could I have done differently? You know, go out and ask for feedback. So there's so many different areas of what and leaders and managers. So the most senior leadership people have bought into what they want out of a culture. They they know what it's about. They are clear on how important culture is.

Jo Wright [00:10:21]:
And and they put they put the time and resources in place to help the organisation go in that direction. So and all of that helps to build what I call an organisational growth mindset. So it's a growth place. It's a place of creativity, innovation. And I often say there are just no downsides to building a coaching culture. You know, even in terms of the people metrics, the benefits, it's a positive. It's a win win all around. So that's a coaching culture.

Jo Wright [00:10:56]:
It's a positive place to be. And and I often say, when you when you're in one, you may not even appreciate that you're working within a culture where that is great. But when you're not in it and you're in the opposite of it, it can feel like hell on Earth. You know, and it can feel toxic. It can feel like feedback isn't isn't respected. It's backstabbing. It's gossip. It's it's not being honest with each other.

Jo Wright [00:11:23]:
And leaders and managers are are in a place where they know their role, and they know that when they are growing, when they are coaching their teams, or they're using a coaching style more often, that they're growing as well as their teams are growing. And the opposite of it is where leaders and managers are just tell barking orders, Do as I say, not as I do. It's quicker to tell you what to do. I haven't got time to coach you. I haven't got time to show you how to do this. So we're gonna be sort of stuck in this cycle of nobody's growing because I'm telling you the answer. Because you keep coming for a question. Actually, you stop.

Jo Wright [00:12:06]:
You're helping people to think for themselves. I think fundamentally, that is it. People get to think for themselves. And when people think for themselves, they they're more likely to take action, because they're empowered. There's loads of positive ways of describing a coaching culture. But it's it's a positive place to be. And and there's lots of different areas that people will measure themselves on where they are on that, journey. Because it's really interesting.

Jo Wright [00:12:34]:
It's it's not I don't believe it's sort of an end destination, and then you've all got, you know, you've all arrived. We're here. We've got to our coaching. It's a constant work in progress because you have new people joining the organization. They bring new ideas. They bring new ways of doing things. But actually, the fundamental beating heart of the organization is one of, positive focus on conversations and honesty and feedback, trust is built, because it is, and it does, and high performance will follow. And it's really interesting.

Jo Wright [00:13:10]:
I can see and feel the organisations that are really working towards that. And they've it's such a positive intent and right from the top. And you can feel the other organisations that look a little bit more. This is all about our commercial bottom line, and we'll get there whichever we whichever way we we can. And actually building a coaching culture is a a a slower burn, but it's building really solid foundations, and the performance will follow.

Carla Miller [00:13:44]:
It sounds idyllic. And I know listening to the clients that I have that not every person is operating in an organization like that at the moment. What percentage of organizations do you think have coaching cultures? Like, is it rare at the moment, or is it something that's becoming more common?

Jo Wright [00:14:00]:
So in terms of percentages, I think it's growing, but I still think the percentage will be quite low. I will go under 30%. And where would I get those stats from? Whenever we've done surveys at our conferences or we've sent out surveys through email, we gather loads of information back. And there's like a real there's people who are usually about 15, 20% saying, yeah, we're there actually. We're pretty much there. Thank you. Then there's that number at the bottom going, so 15, 20% saying we're there. There'll be more people then going, yeah, you know what? We've worked it's a work in progress.

Jo Wright [00:14:42]:
And then there'll be about 15% at the bottom going, there is we are nowhere near this. So it's kind of like a bell curve of growth towards a coaching culture. But no, I think it's it'll be under 30% would be sat there going, yeah, we've got the flags out. It it, you know, but it is growing. And I think that's the key point. It's, it's not, it's only just really starting to take a hold and the pandemic has definitely accelerated the need. It was happening before, you know, we we set up a business called Coaching Culture and people are like, oh, we're not ready for it yet. We know it's important, but we're not ready.

Jo Wright [00:15:22]:
Actually, more and more organisations. And the pandemic has definitely accelerated that and said, do you know what? We need to give our people the skills because guess what? They're not side by side anymore. Or there's certainly a lot less people sat side by side, people are working. So you can't hear things as much. You can't see things as much. So you have to trust people to do their work. And you've got to trust them often to be remote. So a lot of it is about trust and coaching skills and building relationships.

Jo Wright [00:15:56]:
So while I'm not sat here with all the exact facts and figures and stats, it's definitely a wave of it's moving forward in the right direction. But there's definitely we're not there yet. I'd love to be sat there going, oh, it's 100%. And I'm not even sure if it'll be 100% in 30, 40 years. But it's definitely moving that direction because more and more organizations are recognizing the need, and they're also seeing their stats on, mental health deteriorating. They're seeing stats on, you know, people are leaving organizations if they're not getting what they want from the culture. So people are talking with their feet and actually coaching and better conversations and better leaders and managers are absolutely part and parcel of the solution.

Carla Miller [00:16:45]:
And that maps onto my next question, actually, which is lots of people I'm talking to at the moment are really overwhelmed. Lots of overwhelmed managers and leaders. And I know they will be sat there going, I really want to do this. In fact, Boston sent me messages about how do I get better at coaching and can I have a where can I do my coaching qualification? So what's your step? If you're a manager and you're thinking, I want to be a better manager. I want to get better at having these conversations, but my team are overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed. How do you do that initial clearing the time and space to do that kind of development thinking and training you were talking about?

Jo Wright [00:17:23]:
Do you know what? I think there's a few things. Everybody, everybody without a shadow of a doubt can go and start to develop their own coaching capability skills without waiting for the organization to put somebody on their fancy whistles and bells course, or without having to spend 5 to £10,000 on a big coaching qualification. Anybody can now because we've all got Google. We can all just look into what what are the skills required? What are some great coaching questions so people could go find for free right now? I mean, I also can can share people could get access on coaching culture. On Content Hub, we've got resources in there to help people to build that capability. So there's lots of free resources out there. If people just thought, you know what? I'm not gonna get a load of money from my organisation, but I can go and do something myself. I always recommend a book from the wonderful Michael Bongistaino, which is The Coaching Habit.

Jo Wright [00:18:21]:
I absolutely love it. There's 7 core questions in there. And you know what? If more and more leaders and managers just use some of those questions more of the time, we're moving the dial, which is great. So for me, don't, I don't, I, and I often say pea, don't, people don't need the board's permission. They don't need HR's permission. They don't need the L and D permission to go and have a conversation with your team. That's the role of a leader and manager. Conversations are happening all of the time.

Jo Wright [00:18:50]:
They just could be better. They could just adopt a coach approach more of the time. So people don't need permission. They don't need to wait for money. They don't need to wait for budget. They can go right now and go and Google something and start giving things a go. How do they find the time and space? So that is down to them proactively making time and space and actually getting themselves off that treadmill. Because often, if somebody looked at their calendar in the week and they felt they were so, so busy and so would their team, actually if they sat there and looked at some of the things where they could coach somebody to do that role, They could really you have to upfront invest in supporting people in your team to be better.

Jo Wright [00:19:35]:
But then from here on, you can delegate and and continue to coach and develop and empower your team. So there is there's quite a lot of myths out there in my opinion that that need busting. And I haven't got time is is one of my favorite, because it's like, well, we've all got the same amount of time, and it does take time up from an effort. But the worst the worst case scenario is not making that time and effort, and you're just forever on that downward spiral of a busy, busy, overwhelming treadmill. Actually, if you started your week and think, right, okay, what if I spend time with my team and coach them how to do these jobs that I seem to be doing all the time, then the team develop and I develop. And it's just a growth opportunity all around. So there's definitely things that leaders and managers can go and do right away with no money and but with some definite intentional focus of what they want to do with their time. And equally, then there's, you know, there are organisations who can invest in enabling their teams through coaching skills, a coach mindset, I often talk about.

Jo Wright [00:20:44]:
And at Coaching Culture, we created some tools, digital, to to, again, back to the point of sprinkling fairy dust to actually get things out on a large scale. So digital tools are obviously more affordable and more scalable. So that is absolutely a fantastic resource through mindset, which is self coaching. So where people often have to go to a professional accredited coach to start understanding if they've got, you know, are they showing certain or are they saying certain things that are clearly limiting beliefs? So there's loads of things that we've created to support people. And then there's obviously a whole suite of, including yourself, Carla, those suite of resources of face to face workshops where you can really help people and also then get professional accredited coaches involved as well. I often talk about a coaching capability triangle or a spectrum that actually there's a need for all of it. The very top of the tree, the professionally qualification and actually help their colleagues. Then there's leaders and managers who have coaching conversations.

Jo Wright [00:21:53]:
And that's just more about having some of the skills that, you know, can make their conversations better. Then there's peer to peer coaching. There's there's self coaching. And and I often like in coaching. So cooking, everybody should be able to have some level of coaching skills. You just don't always have to be a professional chef or professional coach with accreditations. So actually, everybody should know how to have some level of coaching skills. You just don't need to be at the top top.

Carla Miller [00:22:22]:
I love that. And I think it starts with coaching yourself in a way, doesn't it? Coaching yourself around that issue of I don't have enough time or I don't feel I have enough skills. And I think you've unpacked that for us really well. Now, the book is called No More Ship Managers. And I know there will be some people listening a little bit worried that they might be a ship manager despite their best of intentions. How do we know whether we are or not? Yeah. How do we know how we're doing?

Jo Wright [00:22:50]:
We get feedback. We absolutely brave the feedback. Coaching and feedback go hand in hand. And, you know, we ask people and we have to be brave enough to listen to what is being told and what is being shared. We often have blind spots. And actually I think feedback is the best way to go out and say, look team. And also ask our ask your teams, you know, how am I doing? The best people ask for feedback. They don't wait for it.

Jo Wright [00:23:17]:
You know, they go out and solicit feedback. So many, so many great examples of fabulous people who do that. And they grow on the back of it. And they're resilient enough to take the feedback because, you know, something in us is is, you know, I wanna give you some feedback, makes us go, oh, no. As opposed to, oh, brilliant. Fantastic. Thank you. I'm ready for this.

Jo Wright [00:23:38]:
How and seeing it as a positive reframe to how can I be better because your intentions are hopefully positive with the feedback? And I think that's it. I think if we if we give feedback with positive intent and we're wanting the person to be better on the back of the feedback, then that's great. It's when people give feedback and that's not what their intentions are, which creates a bad name for feedback for sure. So I'd I'd certainly be going. And also people self reflecting actually what went well in that conversation? What didn't? And often the best conversations are are the most challenging, but they're the ones that get the greater outcome.

Carla Miller [00:24:15]:
Absolutely. And you've got everyone excited about a coaching culture, and we're gonna talk about how people who are at the top of an organization or in the people function can do something about that. If someone's listening to this as a middle manager, not yet at a point where they can actively influence, what could they do? Can you create a coaching culture just within your team? For example, can you create a little safe bubble, or is it better to try and, nudge organizational change? What are your thoughts on that?

Jo Wright [00:24:45]:
Yeah. I think you absolutely can. I think we're, again, back to the principles of what is a coaching culture, people having honest conversations, effective conversations, feedback, and building trust, you absolutely need to be able to start that in your team. And if every team did that, you're starting to get a coaching culture. So absolutely focus on your team. And it's interesting even just from the book going out. You know, I've had people contact me who are depot managers. You know, they're not creating the culture in the whole organization.

Jo Wright [00:25:17]:
They're creating it in their depot. They're leading a, you know, a team of over a 100 people. You know, so this is absolutely, you can start team you know, more teams, functions, and go bigger, because all of that builds a culture of positive conversations. So I would encourage anybody to really reflect on how can they adopt a coach approach more of the time. And it's not all the time, because sometimes you absolutely need to tell people because they need to know. I used to have a team a number of years ago, and there was one person and I'd say, do you want me to coach you on that? Or do you want me to just tell you? Just tell me, Joe. Just tell me. So I would.

Jo Wright [00:25:59]:
And here you go. Here's my answer. It might not be the right one, but here's an answer from me. And that person, the whole team, is still in a similar role. And it's years years because they've literally been spoon fed answers rather than having to think for themselves. Whereas the rest of the team, coach me, coach me. So they've gone on to really think bigger. They've, you know, they've grown on the back of it.

Jo Wright [00:26:22]:
They developed. We all developed. So there's lots of different examples on how you can help. But it's really about the the climate you create in your team. And I think it's absolutely down to honesty, being honest, Being truthful. Don't expect people to be mind readers. That's the real guilty thing in an organization when, you know, we think something. So we're assuming everybody else is knowing what we're thinking, particularly if it's linked to feedback.

Jo Wright [00:26:50]:
Actually, it's being brave, being courageous, So many positives for building a culture. And, you know, impacts and influences absolutely by being you know, coaching is about curiosity. And when you're curious, you know, you're asking people questions. You can be doing You're having impact by being curious and caring for people. You know, how can you help them? How can they help you? There's so much. So honestly, there's so much. And there are more and more organisations, but we're still not there. We're not we've not reached the coaching culture endgame by any stretch of the imagination, Carla.

Carla Miller [00:27:31]:
And if someone's listening and thinking, I want to this on the agenda of our people team or our senior leadership team, I was gonna ask you what they could do about that. But I'm guessing get them a copy of the book is probably a really good place to

Jo Wright [00:27:45]:
start. I think the book provides us, I think, a simple practical guide on a framework. And in there, there's a you know, it's it's actually called 7 steps to a coaching culture and and step 1 is about getting that the board level and senior team bought into taking you on this journey of cultural change. You know? And that's about visualizing. Step 1 being visualizing what is a culture. Step 2, strategizing. So actually thinking through, actually, how can we make this happen? What are the steps in place? What are the resources we need? What's the budgets? Then step 3 is where organizations often fall fall down. This is about engage.

Jo Wright [00:28:24]:
So winning hearts and minds. Letting people know what you what where the where you're going as an organization. This is what we You know, getting people bought in, getting them excited. I have to When I speak to organizations, they've they've they may have missed out the hearts and mind stage of any level of change program. And, you know, and I quote in the book that people the first they find out about is they get some sort of calendar invite invitation to a meeting or or to a training course that they didn't even know they were supposed to be part of. So things like that. So there's lots of things. Then it's about building capabilities.

Jo Wright [00:28:57]:
That's the growth stage. Thrive is where you're building coaching capability. And then feedback muscles are building the feedback muscles. So grow, thrive, perform, where you're absolutely starting to have those honest conversations, building trust, building high performance. And the last step is literally going through it all again when you've got new people, so you're embedding and sustaining a coaching culture. And there's some real positive. I mean, there's some toe curling stories in the book. But there's for every toe curler, there's some positive case studies as well, to show to prove it can be done because organizations are out there doing it.

Jo Wright [00:29:31]:
I just wish there was more. Can't wait, to be honest. I just wish more. There's definitely more waking up to it, and there really are, and around the world. I just wish there's more keeping hold of it and not thinking we've set on this journey to build a coaching culture and actually we're now in year 2 or 3 and we're not there or we're not you know, this this takes time. It can't just be one of those initiatives that you just sort of pick up and drop. This is a constant drumming, you know, a constant beating of the drum to keep building and keep staying focused on. This is where we're wanting things to improve.

Jo Wright [00:30:11]:
Because they do, but they take time. This is about changing behaviors. And changing behaviors is, you know, doesn't happen overnight. And that's the thing I think about building a coaching culture is stick with it. Start small and then go everywhere, which was going to be the title of the book, to be fair, before I, got encouraged to, go with a much more provocative title. But it is about starting small and then going everywhere.

Carla Miller [00:30:37]:
That makes sense. And I think, as I listen to you describe a coaching culture, it maps on quite nicely to some of the other things we're asking managers and leaders to do, like embed well-being, embed inclusivity. Presumably, you can you can integrate them all at the same time, so you don't need these 3 separate initiatives. It all can come under that one umbrella.

Jo Wright [00:31:00]:
It absolutely is. You've hit the nail on the head. These conversations that are all happening, potentially, all those the different levels of strategy that are happening in pockets, that's about the topic, well-being, diversity, inclusion. You know, actually, this is about creating a culture of belonging. And a culture of belonging is by having better conversations, raising awareness, giving people the right level of skills and knowledge. But fundamentally, I coaching building a culture culture wraps around all of it. I often hear people talk about, you know, a culture where it's about collaboration, creativity, innovation, compassion, well-being, resilience. And it's like, yep.

Jo Wright [00:31:43]:
All of that all of that is wrapped around with building a coaching culture. And people often would have used the phrase building a learning culture, where, you know, you're wanting people to learn and grow. And a coaching culture is absolutely about that. But a learning culture may be more focused on providing all the solutions. Coaching is actually you've you've got learning solutions, which are great, but actually coaching is about taking it to that next level where people have got the capability to also think for themselves. They're empowered to think. It's not just how many training courses have we sent our teams on. There's more to it.

Carla Miller [00:32:21]:
And from the work I've done in the past in terms of culture change just on a small scale, I find it needs to start at the top, not just in terms of the decision, but creating those behavior changes at the top. Because how often I don't know about you, but I've definitely sat in front of clients where they tell me they want change, but they want everyone else to change. They don't want to change. And I I feel like with a coaching culture, it's more important than ever that you've got those very senior leaders learning how to actually coach and have those kind of genuine feedback conversations themselves before it filters beyond that.

Jo Wright [00:32:59]:
So I agree. But in the book, I talk about obviously, you've got steps 1 7. It sounds all beautifully linear. And step 1 is visualise and get the board all bought in and get everybody really committed at that level. And that is perfect world. So let's be clear exactly to your point. That is perfect world. Get everybody role modeling and filtering down.

Jo Wright [00:33:21]:
The leaders set the tone. They set the behavioral tone. They can't everybody else to change if they're not role modelling what we're asking of others. But sometimes, organisations actually go and build coaching capabilities further along the framework steps. And then they start proving in pockets the wins, the small successes here, the wins there. And then they go back with more evidence, I suppose, in proof to go back to the board and say, look, we're doing this over here and it's really, really changing. Things are working. We need to do this on a large scale.

Jo Wright [00:33:51]:
So there's different so different organisations want that evidence in a different way. Whereas, like yourself, I've worked with organisations where they may have started by getting the board involved straight away and getting them bought in. Or they've not, they've missed that step and gone to everybody else. And then they've they've always had to go back. They've always had to circle back to the most senior team because it's something's fallen down somewhere. And there's examples in the book about that as well, of where it's not been role modeled at the very, very top, and therefore, things have creaked along the way, actually, yeah, get everybody bought in. And everybody's moving together in that right direction. And that's why I like you saying, everybody's holding each other to account.

Jo Wright [00:34:35]:
It's it's it's got more chance of longevity and people actually committing to it. And it is it is about a cultural change. But equally, I wouldn't I also wouldn't say to people, you've gotta hang out and wait for that to happen. You can also go and have those conversations in your own team right now, today, tomorrow. So don't just sit there, you know, wanting change to magically happen all around you. You can still do your bit, and make a difference as your as a leader or as a manager of a team. You absolutely can. And not only can you, it's your duty to to actually if you wanna be the best you can be, you've gotta start by building relationships.

Jo Wright [00:35:21]:
You know, when I talk about coaching, I tell people not to be scared about the word. You know, it's about building relationships, showing empathy, care, curiosity, challenging people. You know, it's not just sit in their silence. You know, this is challenge and high challenge, high support. There's loads of fantastic skills that managers can go with dogs. And I think, you know, ideally, your culture will be changing, but people tend to walk if the culture doesn't change around them. So they can build their own skills and then decide where they want to work. And I think we've seen that with the great power shift, you know, from employer to employees since the pandemic.

Jo Wright [00:36:00]:
You know, people are recognising what they will and won't tolerate anymore. And I think building a culture where more and more conversations are focused on the right things in the right way are the cultures that are definitely gonna win for now and the future. So, yeah, it's, it's a fascinating topic. It's obviously about behavioral change.

Carla Miller [00:36:25]:
I I agree. It's really fascinating. And the other question that's coming to me at the moment is about 6 or 7 out of 10 people I talk to at the moment are working in organizations where everyone is overwhelmed. Like, the ambition of the organization, whether that's aiming for growth as a start up or I have lots of charity clients, and they've got this huge need. And can you start to implement a coaching culture when you are asking people to do more than they physically can? Can? Because that is happening at the moment, isn't it? So many people are being asked to deliver beyond what is actually capable they're capable of doing. And I wonder, like, how do you address that if you're thinking about we want to implement a co coaching culture, but we don't want to slow down on achieving our goals because we're really passionate about our goals, how do those 2 work together? I'm just I'm really challenging you here, aren't I? I just really I I know the real situations that coaches are coming clients are coming to me with, so I'd love your answers.

Jo Wright [00:37:30]:
Yeah. No. I think if so if people are feeling overwhelmed and the organisation is bursting at the seams, I think it's that stop to speed up, isn't it? Slow down to speed up. And if slowing down to speed up means you will, if people start adopting a coaching culture and start focusing on having better conversations, results will happen quicker, better. So I actually think there's got to be some level of challenge, whether it's too ambitious or even if you've got to go, no, we're going with the with the ambition. Then actually give people the better skills to help people come on that journey with them. Because I absolutely firmly believe a culture of trust builds high performance. Whereas what you've described, a culture of overwhelm and a culture of burnout potentially is not going to build high performance in anybody's boat.

Jo Wright [00:38:27]:
That'll lead to high absenteeism, people will be poorly. This is a downward spiral. So actually just if they want, if the end goal is to get the results, then you're gonna have to go about it in a different way. Even if those end goals are the same, how you get there is gonna have to be different. It cannot just be, you know, task, task, task, task. It's got to be thinking differently to get people to behave differently. And that has got that has got to be the thing that changes. And I absolutely think that's got to be about permission to do things differently at the very top and giving people the time and space.

Jo Wright [00:39:11]:
Even if, like you said, even if it's a a charity which is very purposeful, there is no point in having a purposeful organisation if your teams are experiencing overwhelm and burnout. That that is just going one way.

Carla Miller [00:39:26]:
That is definitely gonna feature on social media as a quote because there are a lot of charity chief execs that need to absorb that message, I think. And I don't think they're the only ones. I love that approach. Is there anything else, as we bring this conversation to a close, anything else that you really would love people to understand or know about a coaching culture?

Jo Wright [00:39:49]:
I often say coaching you know, people say there are no silver bullets. And I say, no. There is there is. Having better conversations are the silver bullets to unlock all the things that you and I have talked about today. So actually just stopping to pause and assessing where your culture is right now because you could be heading for the organization that people are leaving out the door, all that knowledge and experience and assessing coaching capability skills. So look at where you are now from a culture and from a coaching capability. Where do you wanna be and start figuring out how you're gonna fill this gap? Because this isn't going away anytime soon and more and more people are expecting it. So make sure you're making yourself fit for now and the future.

Carla Miller [00:40:38]:
Brilliant. And we will send people towards your book. How else can people work with your organisation, Jo?

Jo Wright [00:40:45]:
Well, there's 2 organizations. There's Coaching Culture, which is very much, digital solutions. And then there's myself, which is Jo Wright, speaker and coach. So people can find go to coachingculture.com. Come to me, joewright.com. But LinkedIn is where I tend to hang out the most is LinkedIn because that's where we make all our of professional connections in in a brilliant way.

Carla Miller [00:41:06]:
Fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing this. I'm sure it will have inspired lots of people with this idea of creating a coaching culture because I don't think it's yet I think people talk about coaching, but I don't think everyone knows what a coaching culture is. So hopefully, this has helped a tiny bit fast forward you on your mission. Thank you for sharing your passion with us, and I hope that people find the book super helpful.

Jo Wright [00:41:28]:
Thank you. Thanks, Carla. It's been a pleasure.

Carla Miller [00:41:33]:
If you're not already following the podcast in Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen, be sure to set it to follow. There's a little cross in the top right hand corner of the app so that you don't miss future episodes. If you'd like to talk to me about 1 to 1 coaching or the upcoming be bolder confidence course or Influence and Impact Women's Leadership Program, feel free to head over to my website and book a call or connect with me on LinkedIn.