Carla Miller [00:00:02]:
Today's guest Sue Musson has handled many a crisis in her career, including leading one of the largest NHS trusts through the pandemic. In this episode, she shares what she's learnt about keeping calm in a crisis. We talk about how to calm yourself down from that initial state of panic and how to keep your team calm in a crisis too. We chat through the importance of taking personal responsibility as a leader, and we talk about decision making and what to do when a decision needs to be made, but you don't know what the right decision is. Sue shares some great stories from her own leadership experience as well as her 6 step crisis management framework from her book firecracker leadership. Now Sue achieved her 1st board level leadership role at the age of 27. She's recently completed her term as chairman of Liverpool University Hospitals, which is one of the largest NHS trusts in the country. And she led it through a merger, the pandemic, and the opening of a new hospital.

Carla Miller [00:01:05]:
Her new book, firecracker leadership, has been featured in publications like Forbes and the HR director. And she's served for 15 years as a non exec director and chair of 5 of the UK's most significant healthcare organizations. My name's Carla Miller, leadership coach, author, trainer, and founder of Women Leading, the community that helps women lead without overwhelm. I'm on a mission to empower women leaders in the workplace and make leading less lonely. And this is the influence and impact podcast for women leaders. Helping you confidently navigate the ups and downs of leadership and feel less alone on your journey as a leader. In fortnightly episodes, I share practical tools and insights from myself and my brilliant guests that will help you to succeed in your career. Now before we jump into the episode, I wanted to give you a bit of an update.

Carla Miller [00:01:55]:
So the first is if you have not yet gone and downloaded it, do go and download my free how to say no challenge. In just 5 days, I will take you from being uncomfortable saying no to being willing to say no and knowing when it's okay to say no. You can access it at carlamillertraining.comforward/sayno, s a y n o. Now the exciting things that are coming up next month in September, firstly, we have the next cohort of influence and impact starting. For those of you that don't know, influence and impact is my 3 month group coaching program. It's a leadership development program that will teach you how to tackle self doubt, increase your impact, and become brilliant at influencing. It's a small group of up to 20 women and includes 6 workshops and 2 peer coaching sessions, and you can find out more about that on my website. And then in women leading, which is my ongoing community offering peer support and leadership development to women in leadership roles, we have a great session coming up in September with Jen McKenna on setting and managing your boundaries.

Carla Miller [00:03:08]:
So if that's something that you struggle with, then do head over to carlamillertraining.comforward/womenleading and sign up for women leading. You can sign up. It's £49 a month. You can cancel at any time. So come along, enjoy that workshop, meet the community, and let me help you learn how to lead with less overwhelm. Okay. Let's talk about how to keep calm in a crisis. So delighted to welcome Sue to the influence and impact podcast.

Carla Miller [00:03:43]:
Hi, Sue. Welcome.

Sue Musson [00:03:44]:
Hi, Carla. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Carla Miller [00:03:49]:
Now when I got sent through your guest information, I was like, that is a very interesting career and an extremely successful one. And I know that we are gonna talk about crisis management as a topic, but I think there will be lots of people that will be intrigued about what's your background and how what was your mindset? How do you think you achieved some of those impressive successes in your career? So tell us a little bit, I mean, your bio says you had your 1st board level leadership role at 27 and I, for 1, would love to know how that happened.

Sue Musson [00:04:20]:
Okay. Well, I'll, I will be happy to tell you. Yes, I did. At the age of 27, I did get my 1st board leadership role and largely because I think I thought myself into operating at that kind of level. And I was very fortunate to have fantastic mentors along the way and to be very choosy about where where I worked and making sure that I was working with people who really I could learn a lot from and who would encourage me in my development. So I think some of the best bosses I've had have pushed me out of my comfort zone and conveyed that they believed I had potential and ability, and I rose to the challenge, I guess, by making sure I really applied myself and and worked hard. So, yeah, I mean it's a long time ago now that I was 27, but that was my first board leadership role. And since then I've had more than a 30 year career at board level, running different business services companies as an executive, running some of my own businesses under the Firecracker brand and also serving as a non executive director and chairman of 5 National Health Service Trusts.

Sue Musson [00:05:38]:
So I've had a very varied time of it, a very, very busy career. And, for me just recently, the next step has been to write a book where I really wanted to capture all of the lessons I guess I'd learned in a very practical way because I thought, you know, what I'm about now is really wanting to help other leaders, whether they're aspiring leaders, existing and new to leadership or very experienced leaders, really connect with what are the skills they need to develop and in what mixture to be a super duper leader. Somebody able to really inspire the best out of others and create a great impact.

Carla Miller [00:06:22]:
I love that that giving back of your knowledge and supporting and encouraging others. And how did you get into the NHS side of things? Was that a natural segue from the sector that you were working in?

Sue Musson [00:06:34]:
Not not at all. So I was working in more of a commercial environment, delivering business services and working in consultancy. So at that stage I had my own management consultancy business and unfortunately my son developed a life threatening illness when he was 10. And to cut a very long story short, he was in hospital for what felt like an eternity. He had, you know, numerous surgeries. It was a really hard time. But he's an amazing glass half full person. And he said to me at the age of 10, I think it's a good thing that I've had this experience because I've discovered I want what I wanna do.

Sue Musson [00:07:15]:
I wanna be a doctor. And he was chatting with my dad, who's a retired surgeon while he was recovering and said, grandpa, I wanna be a doctor. What does it take to be a great doctor? And my dad said to him, you know, Harry, you owe it to your patients if you wanna be a great doctor to give them the best of this. And he was tapping his forehead, meaning the best of your brainpower, the best of your technical skills, and he was waggling his hands, and most of all, the best of this. And he put his hands over his heart, meaning, you know, give your patients the best of your love and compassion. And that stayed with me. And when I sat down to write my book, I was thinking, oh, you know, that's exactly the same thing for leadership. So that that's the basis there.

Sue Musson [00:08:03]:
But I think for Harry, he immediately after his illness fastened on to, oh, this was a good thing because I'm now, you know, clear what my vocation is, what my path is. And for me, I'm not as forgiving. I think I found it harder to adjust. But after he was fine and fully recovered, one of my sisters in law worked in the NHS. And she said to me, the NHS at this stage is really crying out for people like you who have a commercial background and some experience of transforming businesses, but also have firsthand experience of NHS care. And to kind of get her off my back, I wasn't really interested at that stage. But to get her off my back, I said I would have a look at the website of public appointments. And it just so happened that the trust where Harry had his final surgeries was advertising for a non executive director.

Sue Musson [00:09:02]:
And that started a 15 year experience of deep commitment. I absolutely loved it, you know, and I've enjoyed my time in the NHS immensely. But that's kind of how it came about almost by accident. And I'm in a way sometimes these things happen and they're meant to be aren't they? But, yeah. So that was my path in into becoming a a non executive and getting involved with the NHS.

Carla Miller [00:09:28]:
I love it. And, my little boy, he's, 6a half now. He was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes last year.

Sue Musson [00:09:34]:
Yes.

Carla Miller [00:09:35]:
And so that's been my interaction with the NHS. And to be fair, he wants to be a diabetes nurse as well. Although he also thinks there'll be a cure by then. So he's like, I won't be needed, will I, mommy? So I I think that that's amazing how he took something positive from that and he's gone on to have a a career as a doctor.

Sue Musson [00:09:51]:
Absolutely. He's fulfilled his ambition and he is an amazing doctor and I think it's just, yeah, absolutely meant to be. So I hope your son will continue to channel that. It's, it's fantastic to have a calling and a vocation, which so many people in the NHS do. It's it's a funny thing because in life, and I know we're going to talk about crises, that one for me was definitely a crisis and for him. And sometimes if you can envisage like there's a going to be a silver lining in this very heavy rain cloud, you know, there will be something that comes out of it that's really productive and gives you meaning and a calling in life if you can but see it that's a a really good technique for kind of mentally processing when bad things happen.

Carla Miller [00:10:41]:
I think that's a good one. I think he went there quite quickly and and has already become like a stronger person as a result of having diabetes, but I am still very much in that. My life is much harder right now. Processing point. But I I'm very passionate about what the research being done and the support that's offered, so the goal is to do a lot more in that area. I have one question on on the NHS side of things, which is for someone who's used to working in dynamic businesses and transforming things, what was it like moving into a culture like the NHS, which is literally an institution? Yes. Isn't it? How how receptive did you find people to change and how did you start to manage and approach that with them?

Sue Musson [00:11:24]:
Yeah. I think, it was a different era 15 years ago, I have to say, so there was a lot of optimism at the time. And the trust that I joined the board of was going down the route of becoming a foundation trust. This is in the days when there was enough money to invest in things like capital development and the workforce. So it was a really, fantastic time of great optimism and I felt like I just I had a brilliant chair, I had lovely colleagues, the organization was very ambitious for its future and I found that I could really translate my skill set into nudging things forward. So I had a fabulous opportunity, for example, to, procure a new hospital. So this had been on the drawing board for like more than 10 years, everybody wanted it to happen and you know working within the board and with expert colleagues across the organization we were able to nudge that forward and I was the board lead for that process and other things like I was the chair of the charitable funds committee which I think they often give to first timers, you know, for new non execs, but for me that was just fantastic, really escalating you know, how we could generate more donations and then invest them in things that were going to make a difference to patient care and to the staff experience. So, and you know, there were lots of practical things like, for, you know, teenagers who who were having oncology cancer patients not wanting to eat because they had reaction to the chemotherapy and blisters in their mouth.

Sue Musson [00:13:09]:
You know, being able to invest using charitable funds to have a chef on-site who could, you know, prepare what people fancied at the time that they wanted to eat rather than glutenous kind of cold meals that had come at regular times. That that kind of thing was absolutely fantastic. So that was the heyday. I have to say the NHS is a very different place now, and it's a lot more challenging to feel like you have the flexibility, I think, and the enthusiasm and and the wherewithal to make that kind of contribution. So I'm really pleased that I have that as my first experience and it did carry me through and I'm still a great believer. I'm still an optimist, although it's a it's a pretty gloomy situation at the moment. But I think when people have that kind of can do philosophy and and are really focused on how can I make a contribution, how can I have a positive impact, it's very energizing for those around you? So I'm I'm still optimistic. I'm not giving up hope, but it's a very different environment today.

Carla Miller [00:14:17]:
There's always hope for change in the future. We're recording this about a week before an election. So by the time it comes out, we will know the results. Exactly. Who who knows? Now, we're gonna talk a little bit later about what it was like leading an NHS trust through that COVID era, but let's go back to firecracker leadership. How are you defining firecracker leadership?

Sue Musson [00:14:41]:
Yeah. So I really wanted to take that model that I described, the head, hands, hearts, and be very specific about what are the skills that every great leader, and that's what I would call the firecracker leader, I thought of something that was very dynamic and energetic and makes you go oh and look up, you know, and fills your vision with something inspiring. And so I wanted to focus on the skills under the head, hands, heart kind of framework that every great leader really needs in abundance, but in balance as well. So sometimes leaders are very head driven. I mean, you know, lots of us have probably encountered a boss here and there who's very target driven, very performance driven. And as one of my former colleagues said, if you're a hammer, all you see is nails. You know, it's a kind of one trick pony world of every every problem has the same solution, and it's all about driving performance. And that can work in the short term, but it's not really sustainable.

Sue Musson [00:15:50]:
So I think it's having all the skills at your command and as you become more proficient as a leader, it's having that confidence that you can flex and morph, you know, between the skill set as you're facing all of life's challenges. So I've used the the firecracker leadership framework to capture the 15 skills and then each chapter in the book is really devoted to a particular theme. One of them is, you know, how to cope with a crisis and there are others where you can apply those skills and see some good practice examples and also some terrible practice examples that you want to avoid like the plague.

Carla Miller [00:16:33]:
And, sadly, we don't have time to go through all 15 today, but, I really thought that focusing on managing a crisis, dealing with crises seemed so apt for your experience. That's something that we haven't covered on the podcast before. Do you have an overall philosophy when it comes to coping with a crisis?

Sue Musson [00:16:52]:
I do. I think and it sounds a little bit facile because it's on a mug and a and a tea towel and an apron everywhere, but, you know, the keep calm and carry on is kind of really important. So I think my underpinning philosophy is that whatever the crisis is, whatever the catastrophe, channeling some calm, just taking a beat, taking a breath, and working out what you're gonna do is absolutely fundamental. Because as a leader, whatever you channel and demonstrate is gonna be picked up and received by by everybody around you. So whatever the crisis is, the calm setting is absolutely crucial. If you and I know that's hard, it's easier to say than do in every situation. But if you can remind yourself, okay, I'm in a fishbowl here. Every everybody's going to be watching what my reaction is and just pausing to breathe, take a moment, channel calm is really effective as a as a first step.

Sue Musson [00:18:04]:
And I think as you become more experienced in dealing with crises, what you do find is that very few of them start to meet the threshold of what's an actual crisis. So I think the more you can have the calm setting emotionally, and secondly, remind yourself every crisis is really just a problem that's waiting for a solution, then that triggers a whole different mental space that isn't about seeking to blame or complain or have a tantrum or gaslight anybody. It's much more about what what will I need to do here to solve this problem? And the steps are always the same. 1st, take a breath, be calm, get your facts, analyze the situation and the problem, and that will then unlock what you need to do to start conceiving of what are the options that we've got to frame a solution. So, yeah, that that would be my my go to advice.

Carla Miller [00:19:06]:
When I read in the book about the fishbowl, it rang true for me completely because I remember when I was in my first managing director role of a, recruitment company, and I had a finance director who wasn't all that chatty, and it would send me reports for cash flow, but I didn't really know enough to know what was going on, and there was no narrative to go with them. And then one day it was like, yeah. We have too many unpaid bills. We can't actually afford to pay our staff and our temp. So we were running a temp a temp recruitment business, so we were paying our temp straight away, but our clients sometimes weren't paying for up to 6 months because they were all charities and take a long time to pay. And I totally went into panic mode, and then I went into solution mode, got on the phone, got on and did everything. But the owner of the company pulled me aside and said, do you realize that everybody is freaking out about their jobs? Because they're hearing you on the phone having these conversations, open plan office, but also they can see your face, and your face says panic. And at the time, I was really upset when you gave me that feedback because I was like, I am working so hard Yeah.

Carla Miller [00:20:14]:
To keep things going here, and I don't feel like it was entirely my fault it had happened. In retrospect, it was. But that feedback was so valuable and has been such a lesson for me, and then I just sat down with everyone and said, look. This is what's happened. We're on it. There's a plan. Money's already coming in. It's gonna be fine, but it was really interesting how much people look to the leader and take their lead.

Carla Miller [00:20:36]:
So even though I was like, oh, I'm working on the solution. It's fine. I clearly had panic written all over my face. And I think what drives that panic is I'm out of my depth. Yeah.

Sue Musson [00:20:46]:
Of course.

Carla Miller [00:20:46]:
Yeah. I don't know what to do here. So I think it's okay to have a little freak out but have it privately, get yourself together, and then Absolutely. Provide a plan.

Sue Musson [00:20:55]:
Yeah. Absolutely agree. And you know so many times I've been in that situation where my inner dialogue is saying I have no idea what where my inner dialogue is saying, I have no idea what to do. But, you know, with the the calm thing and the breathing, I've just thought, right. Well, just, you know, make sure you adjust your face. And I think it actually post COVID, the fact that we can all see ourselves when we're doing a meeting online does remind you how important it is to kind of check your body language and your expression. And, yeah, it's it's sort of being able to acknowledge that you're feeling out of your depth and uncomfortable, but also knowing, okay, I need to present a calm face. And actually, the more I do that, the more I relax into it, the more I will be able to trust my intuition and the feelings of panic and feeling out of control and unsure will ebb away because you're you're opening the door then, aren't you, to finding the solution? But it's it's great feedback.

Sue Musson [00:22:00]:
And I've had it once or twice since we sort of started meetings online because I was told you you have a dreadful poker face and you really to to make sure that whatever you're thinking isn't showing on your face.

Carla Miller [00:22:13]:
That sounds like good advice to be aware of that. So after after you've kept calm the next step that we talk about in your book is taking personal responsibility. Can you speak to that a bit?

Sue Musson [00:22:23]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I think often when something bad happens and you know, it is a part of life as as a leader, you're gonna have to take the rough and the smooth. So the more you can anticipate, like this is normal, sometimes bad things happen, sometimes a crisis arrives. And it really, in the scheme of things, doesn't matter whose fault it was or who created the mess. Your job as the leader is to channel that calm analytical curiosity to be able to say, well, let's get the measure of all the facts about this and then we'll be able to work out what to do about it. And I've had the experience a number of times that, you know, I remember once I'd been appointed as the chair of an of a NHS trust. It was a large teaching hospital and I think I'd been in post for 2 weeks and I got a letter through from the regulator summoning me to London to meet with them to explain the Trust's terrible financial situation. And I thought well clearly I've been in post 2 weeks, it wasn't up to me to create the situation, but you know that was irrelevant.

Sue Musson [00:23:38]:
I was the chairman of the organization and the chief executive and I and another colleague and the finance director were summoned to go meet the regulator. And the important thing I think was to demonstrate ownership and to take responsibility for the situation. And it really is irrelevant. You know, it's useful to know how the crisis or the problem arose, but only in the sense that getting those facts and being able to understand the history will help you navigate through to the solution. If your setting is, well, that was nothing to do with me, I wanna be able to wash my hands of that disaster. It wasn't me, Gove. You know, that that isn't really gonna help anybody solve the problem. I mean, isn't gonna position you very favorably as a leader who steps up.

Sue Musson [00:24:25]:
I mean, part part of the thing is that you get good stuff, but also you have to step up and deal with the bad stuff.

Carla Miller [00:24:33]:
Absolutely. And I think I very much learned that. So the final situation there. Okay. So what comes after you take that personal responsibility?

Sue Musson [00:24:42]:
Yeah. I think, I mean, I I've thought about this and it's looking at the firecracker leadership framework. There are skills about your head that are about curiosity and analysis. So you want to get the facts, but I think you also want to start with empathy and compassion because recognizing whatever the crisis or the situation is, whatever the problem is, there are going to be real people at the center of this who are feeling very upset and confused and angry or scared and really frightened depending on what the situation is, especially if they think they might be getting the rap, you know, and and being blamed for it. So I think, you know, channeling that mixture of the brainpower stuff but leading with your your heart to say, well, I want to get to the bottom of this and understand what's happened, but I'm gonna take a very empathetic, compassionate approach that is blame free. That's more about making people feel it's okay. It was better that you told me that we have a problem. It's better that, you know, we can work together to understand what's happening and providing some reassurance to them really that you're not going to fly off the handle and start pointing fingers or blaming because that doesn't really get you anywhere.

Sue Musson [00:26:05]:
So I think that's the next step. And then doing that deep analytical dive into gathering as much information as you possibly can so that you really understand how is it come about? What what are the dimensions of it? If it's a financial crisis, how how serious is it? How, widespread is it? Does it affect the whole organization? One part, you know, you need to get all your facts together to be able to move to the next step of being able to solve it and conceive of options for solutions.

Carla Miller [00:26:37]:
And I really like that including the empathy because I think a lot of people wouldn't think to include that when you're managing a crisis. But I think it creates that psychological safety, doesn't it? So that you can get honesty from people and everyone is not busy batting it, the responsibility to other people. If you lead by example by taking personal responsibility, then others will too if you've created that that sense of safety and empathy and compassion. So I really love that. Anything else we need to know when it comes to managing a crisis?

Sue Musson [00:27:11]:
Well, two things. 1 is don't get stuck in the analytical mode because that's quite tempting to just keep cycling round, rehearsing the facts and why some things may be unfair and and you know the the causes of the problem. So many years ago I had a colleague who was financially qualified and in our board we were dealing with a financial problem and a lot of our colleagues were very focused on the analysis and going through, well, the reason why there's a financial problem is all of these things that are out with our control and that was true, but it wasn't going to solve the problem. So, staying put in that analytical cycle is really dangerous and so you need to stop it. And my colleague said, and it's a great phrase, I thought weighing the pig doesn't make it any fatter. And so I thought that was really apt summary of you can cycle round weighing the pig and you know plotting on a chart and a diagram, the weight gain of the pig, but it it it isn't gonna help Penny to get you to the solution. So I think the key thing when you're dealing with a crisis is to get to the stage where you you're using the analysis and the relationships, seeking advice and input from other people who you've hopefully tried to reassure that what you're actually concentrating on is finding a solution and then starting to look at options and you have to make a decision. And sometimes it's the least worst option rather than being something that feels really good.

Sue Musson [00:28:53]:
Sometimes you just have to go with it. So taking action and not getting stuck in an analytical loop I think is critical. And the other thing throughout the crisis that I think is really important is just to communicate honestly. So you know, in your example you were saying it was good feedback and you could see what was going on. People are reading your body language, so you're communicating even if you're not verbalizing directly to them. But I think if you can from the off be really honest and say, okay, there's a problem, but we're on it. This is what we're gonna do and I don't know what the solution is yet, but this is what we're gonna do and I'm gonna keep you up to date as we go through and then just communicate constantly. Even if you have nothing new to say, people find that really reassuring because they're, you know, it's important to have a fixed time and methods of how you're going to keep people up to date.

Sue Musson [00:29:52]:
And it's a very important safety net, especially for long lasting crises where there's no discernible endpoint. Something like covid, you know, you've got to build on regular communication so people know what where they're gonna get the facts and the source. And even if it's repetitive, at least people are up to date and they feel like you've taken the time to tell them what's happening.

Carla Miller [00:30:15]:
And how honest should you be about the fact you maybe don't have a solution? Yeah. So I'm thinking back to when COVID first hit, everyone went into lockdown, and all these leaders were suddenly in this position where they were having to lead when they know, like, the ground was shifting

Sue Musson [00:30:31]:
Yeah.

Carla Miller [00:30:32]:
Underneath them. They didn't know the right answer. And that was my experience being a chief exec as I was being at that at that level. I was like, I don't actually know what the right answer is here, and you're going to have to make a decision anyway. How do you deal with that kind of situation?

Sue Musson [00:30:45]:
Yeah. I think, you know, so much depends on personally, I would always be very open, and I think it's a judgment call about when to show vulnerability, and that is okay. And that actually can be really motivational for other people. So I remember at the outset of COVID, and we didn't have a clue, frankly, what to do. It was the most frightening situation to see what was happening in Northern Italy and the bits of information we had about what been happening in China and just knowing it's coming your way and it's unknown, you know, such weird impacts on different people, no discernible pattern, there's no rule book, There were no treatments. There was no vaccine. It was really, really frightening. And I remember in one of our first meetings saying, you know, I just shared a story because at the time my son was a junior doctor working in another trust and he was in an A and E department.

Sue Musson [00:31:50]:
And I'd had a phone call with him the night before and said, are you okay? You know, what's the PPE like? And he said, well, I've got my my loose surgical mask. We've run out. I've got my plastic dinner lady pinny and I've got some, goggles. And I said, oh, and I remember feeling as a mum, well, that's really frightening for me. And I said, oh, you know, and he said, this is my job, mom. Of course, I'm fine. This is what what I'm here to do. I'm a doctor in an A and E department.

Sue Musson [00:32:26]:
Of course, I'm gonna see patients who are spluttering and and unwell. And I I remember relaying that and saying that I felt very upset as a mom, but I have the same feelings for all of the my colleagues in the organization. And I know it was very sincere. It was very genuine. And afterwards, I got a lot of feedback from people who said, you know, that actually was really reassuring for us because we know you're a human being. We don't have all the answers, but you're really clear that you're not going anywhere. We're gonna see this through and that you're you've got the intellectual ability to say here's what we're what we're going to put in place to try to work our way through the solutions. But you're also really aware of the impact on people and you're you're in the thick of it just as we all are.

Sue Musson [00:33:18]:
So I think choosing, you know, when it's appropriate to show vulnerability can can be really powerful and it it can really help other people as well. But you have to be very secure, I think, and confident in your leadership to do that. I have to say my setting would always be on honest and transparent, and I I think that's a much better way of building trusting relationships with people who you rely on and they need to know they can rely on you. And if you keep things or manage the message, it doesn't feel genuine. And I get it that some situations there could be legal considerations and other things. So of course, you have to be mindful of that. But I think as a genuine setting, it's better to be as open as possible.

Carla Miller [00:34:08]:
I agree. And that's really interesting insight into what was going on for you at that point in time. And I think it's it's almost easier for the senior leaders because they are they're making the decisions. It's the ones in the middle who are like, okay. I didn't make the decision. I don't really fully understand why we've done this. I might not agree with it, and I now need to support and implement this. And then how about after a crisis is over? Do you have something that you do to help you reflect and learn when you've worked with an organisation through a crisis?

Sue Musson [00:34:39]:
Yeah, definitely, and it's really important I think to do that. So I I do. I think for me personally, I always keep a little journal and I write stuff down because you think it's so visceral and real to you at the time. You think I'm never gonna forget how this felt and what it was like. But just making a note and capturing it as a little reminder to yourself is really helpful. So, and and cathartic, you know, because sometimes you just need to let go of of some things that have happened. They've they've been really brutal, and you need to kind of work it through in your own mind and think back to what did what did I do well and what would I like to keep in my toolbox, you know, for future occasions and what did I do really badly or what lessons could I learn from the mistakes I made and that that's really valuable. And I think doing that as a as a group, whatever your leadership team looks like with your colleagues, with other leaders is really, really important.

Sue Musson [00:35:46]:
And, I think it's, you know, I've been impressed by how people, when you do build in the lessons learned and the reflection after a crisis, how much that builds the capacity of an organization and a team to be resilient, more experienced you get and the more learning and reflection you do after the fact, the better equipped you are to sort of shortcut the whole thing and see it as, you know, a quicker route into getting to the solution. So, yeah, it's it's a great technique.

Carla Miller [00:36:27]:
Excellent. And I was just thinking about, those crises that seem to last a very long time. So we didn't know how long COVID was gonna last, but just thinking about the NHS, for example, and some of the challenges it faces, those are long term challenges. And I'm working with clients at the moment who started being overwhelmed, with their workload and what the organisation expected from them when COVID first hit. And 4 years later, even though we're not technically in crisis mode, we still I think there is a crisis going on in terms of the expectations and that push for for growth and more all the time at the cost of employees' well-being. How, I guess, any advice for a leader who's leading in an organization that feels like it's permanently in a crisis?

Sue Musson [00:37:16]:
Yes. I mean, I really recognize that. It's so true. And I think with these long lasting things that happen that are you often get the flurry of the Dunkirk spirit at the outset where everybody's really motivated and pulls together as a team. And we saw so many of those positives at the outset of COVID where, you know, incredible courage and people just like getting on with it. But you know, the chickens do come home to roost and I think it's it's really, really challenging afterwards to maintain. You can't sustain that sort of initial level of all hands to the pump and people absolutely throwing themselves into it. It's just not humanly possible.

Sue Musson [00:38:03]:
So I think with the long lasting one, it's kind of trying not to exacerbate the fallout afterwards. So if I look at the NHS, for example, we've gone through this period of initially people showing incredible courage, being cheered on the doorstep every Thursday night, and now we've had more than a year of industrial action and, you know, people saying I'm really unhappy with the way I'm being treated at work. I'm unhappy with my pay, but also lots of other factors affecting junior doctors and others. It's and it's still unresolved. So I think some of the what to do is what not to do in terms of being overly demanding of people. So I think if you can find a way through to recognize that they did heroic efforts at the outset, that's not the expectation that people can perform and sustain that sort of level and recalibrating and saying, well, what's going to be our new normal and seeing where there's flexibility to offer some additional support and understanding is really important. So a lot of the pressures in the NHS really are a consequence partially of COVID, but they're also a consequence of lots of workforce decisions that have been made over a very long period of time. And it's all kind of come to a head as a perfect storm at the moment.

Sue Musson [00:39:38]:
But I think with a long standing thing, you know, a bit of realism about resetting expectations of what's reasonable to expect people to do goes a long way, and there's always a psychological fallout. You know, when people have really been all hands to the pump, absolutely going for it and really putting every effort. It's not sustainable, so there's going to be a dip and I think a more compassionate and understanding way is to recognize that and put in place, you know, what are what's the safety net so that people can rebuild their resilience and where is it reasonable to recalibrate and set expectations that you're not going to perform at heroic levels forever. You know, we've we've got a reset. It's very difficult in the NHS at the moment. I wish it I wish it were a better example that I could say, oh, it's all sorted, but but it isn't. But I think if you know, if you were looking within a single organization, that sort of mindset of just taking a step back and thinking through what have we been through? What did people, you know, how did people respond that was really appreciated and recognizing and thanking them for that and then seeing well where do we need to adjust, where have we got some flexibility that we can just give people a breather and then recalibrate.

Carla Miller [00:41:01]:
Yeah. I I think that's so true. And I think that there's just not that awareness, self awareness in the leadership teams of quite a lot of organisations at the moment. I get organisations contact me and go, can you run a how to say no training workshop? My first question is, well, how safe is it to say no? Can they actually say no? Can I work with the senior leadership team so that they're aware of that? And then it kind of goes away. Like, you just wanna tick the box, don't you, saying, well, we've supported you, so now give us a better team in our employee survey when actually what you need is to do that recalibration, resetting of expectations as an organisation. And some places are doing that very well, but there's a lot that aren't from what I'm hearing. So so much fantastic stuff there in terms of crisis management, and the book is full of fantastic advice as well. I would love to ask you for one piece of advice you would give to a woman who's wanting to develop her career to get to the top of organisations like you have or or to to start doing non exec roles.

Carla Miller [00:42:09]:
What advice would you give to someone in that situation?

Sue Musson [00:42:12]:
Yeah. So first I think I would start with maybe use something like my leadership frame, firecracker leadership framework to assess where your strengths are, you know, and it's good to feel good about what you're good at. I think too many women are afraid to feel confident and proud of what their strengths are. So I would love to inject some of that belief. It's fine to say none of us are the finished article, you know, there's always somewhere to grow. But if you have a realistic understanding of what you're good at, that will give you a lot more confidence about aiming for whatever your next step, your your, where your ambition is going to take you. And ambition is not a dirty word, you know, it's a really compelling magnetic thing to feel ambitious and proud of what you're good at is a great show of self confidence. It isn't arrogance.

Sue Musson [00:43:14]:
It isn't unpleasant. And especially if the reason why you want to achieve a more senior leadership role is because you're going to be a great role model and a great leader who can help other people achieve more and do more, then fantastic. So first I would say, you know, connect with what you're good at and feel a sense of appreciation and gratitude for that. It'll give you some self belief. If I think back on my career, it's so important to have good role models and mentors. So don't be shy of asking somebody you admire to just spend some time with you over a coffee or an hour just to give you some feedback and to give you some thoughts about, well, where could I go next? And what do you see as my, the qualities where I'm good and strong? What are the things that I might focus on to improve on? And I think if you're not comfortable approaching somebody else, do it mentally first. So think about the leaders you've encountered who you admire and what are the qualities that they have and how could you copy? You know, that's role modeling, but making it authentic to you. So how could I internalize that good practice that I've seen in others if you're not yet at the stage where you want to ask for for some help? And then I think the final thing I would say is be really clear about seeing yourself in the role that you want and why you want it.

Sue Musson [00:44:47]:
If you know that, if you know where you want to go and what you want, suddenly the whole field of opportunity will come to you. And I remember years ago I was working as a management consultant and I had this brilliant client and others who were not so brilliant and I thought, you know, I can really see what I could bring to that organization. I'd love to work with that chief executive in that organization. And you know 2 weeks later I got a phone call saying, well you're not expecting this, but I want to offer you a job with us. And I laughed and he said, why are you laughing? And I said, oh, because I knew that was what was gonna happen. And I know it sounds very freaky, but it's true. The more specific and focused you are on what you where you want to go, why, what it is you can bring, what you can contribute, and what you're willing to grow into, the more those opportunities will come your way. It's it's all there.

Sue Musson [00:45:48]:
It's all possible. You've got to start with you, you know, don't hide your light under a bushel. Don't feel that you have to pretend you're not ambitious to make yourself more palatable. That's not that's not helping anybody. You know, go go out there and go for it.

Carla Miller [00:46:06]:
Inspiring words. Thank you. And if people want to engage with you further, why should they go to do that?

Sue Musson [00:46:12]:
Please come to my website which is suemussen.com and on there you'll see some nice little nifty gifts. So there's a downloadable PDF of the firecracker leadership framework and some more information about my background and and some of the work that I do. So please look on there. I'm also on Linkedin, so please connect with me. I'd love to see you. And on my website I'm going to have a calendar. So any listeners to the podcast who want to have a have a chat with me, you can book a quick session. We can say hello and and see, how you're going on, and hopefully I can help you.

Carla Miller [00:46:52]:
Excellent. Very generous of you. Well, it sounds like people need to head over there. Thank you so much. I've loved this conversation, and I find it really reassuring to know that there are people like you out there working with these big organizations on important issues, and I'm also gonna go away and just look into that because that might be something I might want to do one day when I'm a grown up.

Sue Musson [00:47:17]:
Fantastic, thank you so much Carla, I've really enjoyed talking with you, thank you.