Carla Miller [00:00:01]:
Are you an overthinker? Some of my most popular podcast episodes have been on overthinking and worry. So I know that this is an issue that impacts many of us. I also know from personal experience how much it can hold us back and impact our self esteem. So I jumped at the chance to interview Nicole Freeman, who coaches many senior professionals around overthinking. And in this episode, you're going to hear about the link between overthinking and trying to avoid feeling, especially those sort of uncomfortable, overwhelming feelings. Nicole is gonna share with us the 3 key fears that come up for many of us and how they can fuel overthinking. We're going to flag some of the signs that you may be overthinking. Because it's possible you are overthinking lots of things and aren't even aware of that.

Carla Miller [00:00:54]:
You're not calibrating how much time you're spending thinking of things. And finally, Nicole shares practical steps that you can take to deal with overthinking and to build more positive thought patterns. My name's Carla Miller, leadership coach, author, and trainer. And this is the Influence and Impact podcast for women leaders, helping you confidently navigate the ups and downs of leadership and feel less alone on your journey as a leader. In fortnightly episodes, I share practical tools and insights from myself and my brilliant guests like Nicole that will help you to succeed in your career. Now, if this one really resonates with you, you might also enjoy episode 110, which is called how to stop overthinking, and episodes 122 and 123, which are both on worrying. And if one of the things that you worry about is saying no to people and how much work you've got and how overwhelming it is, then do make sure that you have signed up to my free resource, the how to say no challenge. For 5 days, you receive a short email with a short video taking you through the 5 steps of my how to say no framework.

Carla Miller [00:02:08]:
So we'll get you happily saying no in just 5 days. Head over to carlamillatraining.comforward/sayno to sign up for that. And if you're hoping that 2025 is gonna be different for you, then check out my 2 courses coming up, the be bolder 4 week confidence course in February, and influence and impact, my women's leadership development program that helps you tackle self doubt, increase your impact, and become brilliant at influencing. That's running in May 2025. Now a little bit about our guest, Nicole, before we go on to the episode. Nicole is a highly regarded ICF accredited coach. She works with mid and senior level professionals. Her own background includes chartered accountancy and MBA qualifications, as well as experience as an interim FD, business consultant, owner of her own multi award winning business, and having run a small family business, she's commercially focused with strong business acumen and comfortable across a range of industries.

Carla Miller [00:03:11]:
Her background as a top performing audit and transaction senior manager, and then project manager to the UK leadership team in one of the big four accountancy firms, means she's well placed to understand the challenges that those in professional services face. Her areas of expertise are around perfectionism, people pleasing, and procrastination, things, as I'm sure you know, that are common for high achievers. Nicole offers a free mindset MOT that you can book in at, and the details for that are in the show notes. Now before we roll the episode, just one more thing to say, which is this is our final episode of 2024. We're taking a little break over the seasonal season. We're going to be back on the 6th January, which is my birthday by the way, and I'm turning 50, which I'm I've been psyching myself up for this for about 2 years now. So I'm feeling great about turning 50. In the 6th January episode, I'm gonna be sharing with you some exercises that will help you reflect and look back, and bring 2024 nicely to a close, and help you work out what's important to you in life and in work in 2025.

Carla Miller [00:04:22]:
And I'll be sharing some of the reflections that have come up for me when I've answered those questions as well. So enjoy the festive season, but before we get there, have a listen to this brilliant episode about overthinking with my guest, Nicole Freeman. So welcome to the show, Nicole. Lovely to have you here. How are you doing today?

Nicole Freeman [00:04:46]:
I'm good. Thank you. It's lovely to be here, Carla.

Carla Miller [00:04:50]:
Excellent. Now this is a topic close to my heart because I have definitely been an over thinker for most of my life. But before we dive into how we can really help ourselves when we overthink, let's hear a little bit about you and your background and how you help people. How do you work with people?

Nicole Freeman [00:05:08]:
So I've had a quite diverse background. I started out as a chartered accountant. So prime area for overthinking because we're all in the business of risk management and, thinking is what we're paid to do. And then I took a career break as a stay at home mom, and I ran my own kids' cooking school. So I had my own business for many years. And all of that time, I'd been coaching, and it got me very interested in the mindset. So I trained as a clinical hypnotherapist, And I do that some of that with my coaching, but now, essentially, I'm coaching. And I coach professionals mostly, leaders, execs, those moving up to that next stage.

Nicole Freeman [00:05:48]:
So what I often describe as high achievers and people pleasers and those prone to overthinking.

Carla Miller [00:05:54]:
Yep. That sounds like lots of my audience. Definitely sounds a bit like me as well. So, you have a theory that overthinking is related to under feeling, which sounds fascinating. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

Nicole Freeman [00:06:07]:
Sure. And as you say, it's it's just a theory. It's something I've noticed with clients, but it seems to be something that lands really well with them. So the idea is basically we're being we're stuck in our minds. And as a result of being stuck in our heads, essentially we're not in our bodies. So some people would describe that as their heart or their gut. So we're not we're not using that other bit of information and helpful decision making that we can use. And usually, we're stuck in our minds because that's driven by fear and the need to be in control of things.

Nicole Freeman [00:06:40]:
So that's sort of where that theory comes from. And there is some neuroscience around that because Evian Gordon always talk about our brain is designed to minimize danger and to maximize reward. And so that overthinking piece is designed to, if you like, keep us safe to think through all of those options. And I should say that obviously there's nothing wrong with thinking. It's where overthinking gets to a kind of crazy or unhelpful extent.

Carla Miller [00:07:08]:
And maybe it would be helpful to, not define it, but how do we know whether we are thinking or overthinking? What are the indicators that say, oh, this might not actually be super helpful or as helpful as we think it is?'

Nicole Freeman [00:07:22]:
That's a really good question. I think it differs for different people. It's at the point that it feels uncomfortable to you or unhelpful. So there's loads of different signs. So, you know, you might be feeling stressed. Some of those phrases that we use like analysis paralysis, you are second guessing, or you're procrastinating. You know, those kinds of things, I think, would would be a real sign. And, yeah, it's it's just a a time when you're noticing you're very much in your head and and nowhere else.

Nicole Freeman [00:07:52]:
So there's actually, I read the other day, there was a really interesting piece of research that said that it actually takes only 90 seconds for an emotion to travel through our body, and that's the amount of time that it takes for the chemicals to dissipate, if you like. And therefore, if we're still feeling that feeling, almost that's a choice. And so that, I think, would be the key bit maybe that's one of the indicators to say, actually, I'm kind of really stuck in my head here if this is something, that I'm still feeling. I'm I'm choosing to stay there.

Carla Miller [00:08:23]:
Yeah. I love that. I that concept. In Buddhism, they call it the second arrow. So the first arrow is the bad thing that happens. And then the second arrow is you doing it over and, like, ruminating on it over and over again in your head. And then, like you say, recreating those feelings again. So it's like you're stabbing yourself with the arrow again and again.

Carla Miller [00:08:41]:
So if you're still angry in the end of the day, it's not necessarily that person's fault that you're angry. You're the one that's been doing it to yourself. Yeah. I am a chronic overthinker, but I have been putting in place quite a lot to help me with that. Now you said when you're stuck in your head and not connected to your body and your gut. So those are other sources of information, are they, that can help us to make our our decisions or to lead a emotionally healthy life?

Nicole Freeman [00:09:11]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So I think it's a combination. It's not one or the other. And one of the signs of overthinking can be that catastrophic or black and white thinking. You know, it's either this or it's that. So I think it's working with both. And often clients will say things like, yeah, I kind of knew that.

Nicole Freeman [00:09:27]:
Why has it taken me so long? And there's that intrinsic knowing. I I think perhaps a better word is is intuition. You know, we all talk about intuition, and it's thinking about that. And, sometimes I describe it as a muscle that perhaps we've not developed. You know, if we're so used to thinking in a certain way and and being very logical and rational, it's almost like we're going to the gym and we're lifting a weight, you know, with our left arm. We've got a really well developed left bicep. But that other side, that right arm, that right bicep is just not as well developed yet. And my sense, and I can't prove it, but is that people who are in certain professions, and particularly I think as you get more in a management or leadership role, we're so used to doing that thinking that actually we're not allowing ourselves to tap into this other resource, if you like, that that we have.

Carla Miller [00:10:19]:
That makes sense. And then you mentioned it was often based around a fear of 1 of 3 things. Can you speak to those 3 feelings that we're worried about, those 3 fears that we have?

Nicole Freeman [00:10:30]:
Yeah. Sure. So the the 3 that I I talk about, and and this comes from my hypnotherapy training, actually, something I learned from my mentor, is the first that I think you see most often is that fear that we're not good enough. So that could be, I'm not smart enough for this promotion. You know? I'm not thin enough. I'm not rich enough. I'm not you know, any of the not enoughs. But often it is, I'm not smart enough, particularly for the kind of, you know, clients that we're talking about here.

Nicole Freeman [00:10:55]:
There's also that piece around, well, this just isn't possible. And I think often you see that with women. You know, a woman just would never get promoted. There's a glass ceiling. Or if it there's a DEI piece, you know, it can be those kinds of things there. Or I don't deserve it. This just isn't possible for me, whatever this thing is that you want to do. And that third bit is, well, I don't belong.

Nicole Freeman [00:11:17]:
And that speaks to that connection piece that I think is so important. So, you know, that could be a social anxiety, personally or professionally. So this this just feels uncomfortable. I don't feel like I've got a voice in the room or I don't feel that, you know, I'm part of this work environment or it could be a toxic work environment. Any of those kind of things, I think, can can play that out there.

Carla Miller [00:11:40]:
Yeah. And lots of that rings true with the conversations that I have with my coaching clients as well. So that's really interesting. And when I read what you'd written about overthinking being underfeeling, that really resonated with me because, on a personal level, I'm having therapy at the moment. For the first time, I have tried it occasionally in the past, but I'm not properly committed to therapy at the moment. And I find it very hard to actually tap into the physical feelings of emotions in my body. So I will go straight to problem solving, re reframing, all my coaching tools. And then I'm happy, and this is great.

Carla Miller [00:12:19]:
But, my therapist is like, yeah, those feelings are still there somewhere. And they're still making you act in particular ways. And so I'm trying to tune in more to my body. And I know we're going to talk a little bit about how your body can help you with overthinking. But I am just someone who finds that incredibly hard. So when she says, oh, where are you feeling this emotion? I'm like, I have no idea. Like, if if it's if it's not super strong, if it's not anxiety, like, I know what that feels like. If it's not super strong, I'm really not connected to it.

Carla Miller [00:12:50]:
So like you were saying earlier about the, you know, your right bicep and your left bicep, like, I have a very overdeveloped logical approach to doing things. And I think it's because I'm there's something about the actual feelings, like the physical feelings that must scare me at some level. Like, I'm worried they might be overwhelming or I'm worried that they might be too strong, or I'm just disconnected between my brain and my body. So it's, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I think a lot of people who are like, let's get on with things. Let's not focus on problems. Let's just make stuff happen. Like, it's a massive strength.

Carla Miller [00:13:26]:
But if you don't actually take the time to process and feel things, you're carrying them around with you, aren't you? And you end up overthinking. So it was a bit of an overshare. That's what's going on in my life.

Nicole Freeman [00:13:36]:
Totally. Totally. I was wanting to jump in and go, you know, you're absolutely not alone. And I think that's one of the most powerful things that we can share in coaching generally is is actually that overthinking. But it's it's only me that thinks like this. I'm the only one who and it absolutely isn't. But I think to your point about, you know, yes, there can be a fear. Fear is often unfamiliar.

Nicole Freeman [00:13:58]:
So if it's not familiar to tap into your emotions, that's going to explain why it's a bit scary and different. You know? We see that with kids, don't we? But I do think there's a piece around, could be cultural but, you know, more broadly, that we we just don't have the language for emotions. And I think what you raised is such a great point because often I'll say to clients, you know, how do you feel or where are you feeling it? And that could be a more challenging question. And we they just lack the the vocabulary. Well, I don't feel good. Or, you know, you get that promotion. How does it feel? Well, good. And it's sort of you can feel a bit parental, like, well, that sounds like a 5 year old adjective.

Nicole Freeman [00:14:34]:
But we lack the language for that. And it was interesting you just used that language around fear and anxiety. But often that anxiety is is not really the the emotion. I know that sounds silly, but what's underneath that? So if, for example, public speaking would be a great example. So the posh word for that is glossophobia, which is the number one fear, by the way, bigger than dying, which I always think is quite a staggering statistic. But that could be, you know, could be me turning up on a podcast. Right? It doesn't have to be turning up in front of an audience of 1,000. But what is that fear? So the fear isn't public speaking.

Nicole Freeman [00:15:10]:
The fear might be, what will people judge me for? Am I smart enough? There's always that next level underneath. So I think it's about, you know, looking at that. And the emotions wheel can be quite useful to think about. But, again, there's that mind body disconnect. You can read an emotion, but not quite sure where you feel it or how it would express itself or how you notice it. And it's just a practice. It's just something that that takes time.

Carla Miller [00:15:36]:
Absolutely. Yeah. I love the emotions wheel for for giving me words for things. For me, I can get the words. I just can't get the physical feelings very easily. But I think one of the things that this highlights is that there is a lot you can do with practical strategies and tools, but it also highlights the power of working with a coach or with a therapist or with a hypnotherapist, like, whatever resonates with you to really help you unpack some of the stuff because we have our own blind spots, don't we? We're in denial about things all the time, and I know some of the really powerful work that you do with people on this. Okay. And for me, overthinking, and and you mentioned this word earlier, has always been a lot about control and wanting to feel a sense of control.

Carla Miller [00:16:22]:
Does that is that normal? Is that what other people is that why other people overthink as well?

Nicole Freeman [00:16:28]:
Yeah. I think we all want to feel in control, and I think COVID is the most brilliant example, actually, of where we perhaps have an illusion that we're in control and then we've suddenly realized, God, there are so many things outside our control. Yes, we've got a sphere of influence, but actually there are some things we just can't control. And that brings up that anxiety because anxiety is all about controlling the unknown. Well, if you can't control it, how comfortable is that? So it's almost you have to be comfortable with the fact that you can't be comfortable, which is a bit of a paradox. I think one of the the things that can help with that is really tuning into listening to your thoughts and not taking those as facts. And there's there's some really interesting statistics around that that we have up to about 60,000 thoughts a day and about 95% of those are the same as we had yesterday and about 80% or 85% of those are negative. So what we realize is we're being made anxious by these thoughts that are just basically on a loop and they're not actually helping us.

Nicole Freeman [00:17:34]:
And what they discovered was, and this is from some Cornell research, that most of the thoughts about 85% of the things we're worrying about, the fears that that you're speaking about, Carla, don't happen. And in the 15% of occasions where it does happen, most of us discover that either we learned something valuable from the experience or we dealt with it better than we thought we would. So I guess the logic from that is, you know, not all thoughts are facts, don't worry about them. And if if what you're worried about does actually come to fruition, there's probably gonna be some valuable learning there or you're gonna surprise yourself.

Carla Miller [00:18:09]:
Yeah. I was listening to podcasts the other day that said something really similar actually about when we're worrying and thinking about the future, we underestimate our ability to be able to deal with things in the future and overestimate our ability now to be able to deal with those future things. So we sat there thinking, if I just overthink now, I'll be more able to deal with it. But everything that we've actually had to deal with that was really hard, we probably weren't able to predict it, and we managed to get through it. We managed to deal with it. We managed to grow and learn as a result of it. So it's almost about you need to trust your future self, that your future self has got this. You've got this, but you can't control the future.

Carla Miller [00:18:45]:
You need to trust that you're gonna be even wiser in the future and even more able to deal with whatever comes your way. And I found that a really comforting idea, actually.

Nicole Freeman [00:18:54]:
Yeah. That's a great concept, isn't it? I think it's about being present because our minds are prediction machines. So that worry is saying, hey, this is what happened to Carla in the past. You know, maybe this speech, for example, didn't go so well. So I'm gonna predict that it probably won't go well when she does it again. But actually, there's a logic to that, but we don't know that that's true. So the question is, what can we do that's most helpful right now? And I guess the paradox of overthinking, if we think like, well, actually, this is gonna be really helpful because I'm gonna consider all the eventualities. It puts us in that state of of fear, fight, flight, freeze, whatever that might be.

Nicole Freeman [00:19:30]:
And then paradoxically, we can't think as clearly. So it's sort of a logical process that actually is illogical.

Carla Miller [00:19:38]:
Our brains aren't as logical as we think they are at all, are they? Okay. So let's talk about how overthinking shows up. What do you think are the signs, or what are those sort of thought patterns maybe or things we're saying to ourselves that indicate that we might be overthinking?

Nicole Freeman [00:19:55]:
Well, I thought I'd share a few phrases that some clients shared with me that might be interesting, and I I think it talks a lot to how we see it. And I use the word 'see' because, you know, our minds work with pictures and words. But one of my clients described it as the earworm of the mind, that that's how she feels it is, or that we're in a vortex or we're spiraling. And one of them shared, which I really like this image of, like, stackable Lego. So you're sort of building Lego where you're adding more worries and more thoughts and more and more and more, and it's just getting bigger and bigger, or like a train where you're adding carriages. But I think that most of it is around things like if you're replaying conversations in your head or you're second guessing yourself, so you're doubting your ability to make a decision, or you're stuck in that analysis paralysis, you wanna make a decision but you need more information and you just keep going. And procrastination is is a big one. I think the 3 p's are the perfectionism piece.

Nicole Freeman [00:20:53]:
I need to do even more because I've got to get that a star. It's got to be perfect. The procrastination piece, which can often be not doing something, but sometimes it's just maybe doing busy work or procrasti learning. Like, I'll be great as a coach or whatever I'm doing when I've got this extra certificate. So it's just putting things off and not focusing on the things that move the needle. And then I think there's a lot of people pleasing. So there can be a lot here on overthinking about what if, you know, what if I don't do that? Will I upset that person? Or what might their reaction be? So I think those are the big ones. And I should say that they turn up in all areas of our lives.

Nicole Freeman [00:21:34]:
So something I know that I've done, I see clients do, is that endless holiday planning, for example. Well, that's a form of overthinking and how that might show up. Every detail's got to be done and I've planned out everything. And I I had a client once that was very funny. And he said to me one of the biggest examples was he was making a Halloween costume for his daughter and he completely overengineered it. I can't remember what he did. It spent it took him weeks. And he presented this thing to his daughter, and his daughter was very underwhelmed.

Nicole Freeman [00:22:02]:
I think she was about 6 at the time. And he, of course, was absolutely devastated that he'd done all this thinking. You know, it was the whole perfection of Pierce. It was gonna be perfect, and everybody was gonna go, wow. And clearly he underwhelmed his daughter. And he said, well, what did you want to go as? And she said, I wanted to go as the Amazon delivery driver. And he he sort of said that was just so simple. He'd over engineered it.

Nicole Freeman [00:22:24]:
He just literally put this girl in her normal stuff with a with a brown paper box and an Amazon sign. It was so easy. So it it's those kinds of things. I think they sound silly, but when you actually look, you realize that there is a pattern and it will appear in all kinds of ways. But I think also, if you feel anxious, if you feel depressed, that can also be a sign that you're too much in your mind.

Carla Miller [00:22:48]:
Okay. That makes sense. And you work with men and women. Do you see this happening more in women, or are you seeing this happen just as much to men? We just think it's happening more in our brains.

Nicole Freeman [00:23:00]:
Yeah. I'd love it if they did some real science on that. I don't think they've proven, have they, that there is a structural difference in in brains. I think I would say I I work with both men and women, so I see it in both. I think the things that I've read and what I see in my practice are that it's more likely in women. And I I think that that might be culturally in that women are, for example, often caregivers. And so the mental load, if you like, is perhaps higher. And so we're constantly running that to do list, which is a natural way of overthinking.

Nicole Freeman [00:23:37]:
And I guess anecdotally, there's that piece of evidence, isn't there, or piece of research, you know, that if if there's a job advertised, a woman will look at this and go, oh, I don't know. I can do that. So perhaps I won't put myself forward. Whereas a man's more likely to go, well, I'll just give it a go. I don't have it all, but, you know, what the hell? So I do think that there's perhaps a cultural piece, societal piece. I don't know what we call it systemic, but I think it applies to both. And I do think as you get more senior in an organisation, that becomes more of an issue because actually it's very difficult to put your hand up and then go, I'm worried about this. You know, what will people think that that fear again of of judgement, etcetera, comes

Carla Miller [00:24:16]:
in. And there's just so much responsibility, isn't it, over your decisions? If you're making decisions that are going to impact lots of people's lives, for example, this for example, so many restructures going on at the moment. You know, the responsibility lays heavily on you, particularly if you've got empathy. And you will be overthinking not only about am I doing the right thing, am I doing it the right way, but how are people gonna respond, how can I support them with that? How is it gonna feel to be on the receiving end of all the emotions and feelings going on? So those are certainly some of the conversations that I've been having with senior clients recently. Now there's some neuroscience behind this as well, isn't there? And there and there were a couple of ideas, around thought loops and your reticular activating system. I hope you can say that more easily than I can. Can you talk to us about each of those, please?

Nicole Freeman [00:25:08]:
Yeah. Sure. So these are a few, like, mind tools or concepts that I think can be really helpful. Because when we're working with our mind rather than against it, we've actually got some tools to be able to help ourselves. So the thought loop concept is quite simple. And if if you see it as a a loop or a circle, the idea is you'd start with a thought. And as we said before, thoughts aren't facts. You know, if we're having 60,000 of them a day, they're not all gonna be factual.

Nicole Freeman [00:25:36]:
And if I can share this, certainly if you're a parent or if you, you know, you've got a work colleague that sometimes you find annoying, we've probably all had a thought, for example, that's like, oh my god, I just wanna kill my child or I wanna kill that work colleague or something. Clearly we don't act on it. I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes when people hear that they think, like, oh, okay. Yeah. You're right. I don't act on that. So just as a silly example, we're not acting on all our thoughts all the time. So the first thing is to take that thought and realize is that actually a fact? What am I thinking? And what we usually do from a thought is we create a belief.

Nicole Freeman [00:26:10]:
And that belief is what gives rise to a feeling. So would it be useful to share an example that might Yes, please. Resonate here? Well, I'll share a personal example. So quite a few years ago, I I went to a big training event, and they were talking about mindset, which was fairly new. And it was for people starting up in business. And I went to and said to them, you know, this is amazing. I love that you're doing this, and this is what I do. And they said, please come along.

Nicole Freeman [00:26:35]:
Drop me an email and come along to a big event we're doing in London. So I dropped the guy an email, and I never heard back. So that thought in that instance was a fact. I have not had a reply to my email. But the belief I created from that was, well, he obviously didn't mean a I'm not good any good as a public speaker. What have I got to add in this scenario? You know, classic imposter syndrome. And as a result of that, what feelings did I have? Well, lack of confidence, feeling a bit down, etcetera. And then from those feelings, we tend to act consistently.

Nicole Freeman [00:27:04]:
So if you're feeling not very confident, what are you going to do? Well, in my instance, what I did was what I didn't do. So I didn't follow-up on the email. And if I don't follow-up in the email, what happens? You don't get that speaking gig. And if you don't get to speak, then that reinforces that belief. Does that make sense? So you're kind of in a negative thought loop. But what you can do is you can change that. So you start with the same thought. So in that instance, it was a fact.

Nicole Freeman [00:27:29]:
I didn't get the email. But then if I choose to believe something different, that I have got something to add, I feel more confident. And from that feeling, then I might follow-up on the email, which is what I did. And it was quite funny, actually. I did get to speak at the event, and I shared that exactly that example. But that then reinforces the belief. So I think just being able to split that out can be really helpful. And the first bit is is catching that thought or belief that you have and then just checking it.

Nicole Freeman [00:27:58]:
Is that really true? What evidence do I have that, you know, in my example, I'm a terrible public speaker. And usually people don't have evidence for it. It's really interesting. When I work with clients, even lawyers, they'll sit there and they'll say things like, well, you know, I feel this. I actually did a session with somebody last week, and I said, what was the evidence? And it was about networking and speaking to people in public. And she said, well, I've been done once or twice, and these people walked away. And so they obviously thought I had nothing to say. And I was like, if you had to put that in a court of law, how strong would that case be? She's like, fair point.

Nicole Freeman [00:28:33]:
That's really all going on in my head. And then you can flip it. Well, what evidence have you got to the contrary? And that's where you can start to change the belief. So I think it it takes a bit of time, but actually if you can take that pause and step back from your thinking, that's really powerful.

Carla Miller [00:28:45]:
Love that.

Nicole Freeman [00:28:46]:
Good. So that's the the thought loop piece. And the other thing, which which is a mouthful as you said, the reticular activating system, it's almost what we call in everyday terms confirmation bias. So, you know, if you have just bought a red car and you drive down the street, all of a sudden everybody else has got a red car, well, that's not true. That's just that you are looking for evidence of what you believe is true. So again, that can be really powerful. I I often share a silly game with clients that you can do. I know you've got a son, Carla, so you might not like me for sharing this, but it's that game yellow car that when you go out and you notice the yellow car, you whack the person next to you.

Nicole Freeman [00:29:26]:
And, well, I think the game is called cheese on wheels. And you say cheese on wheels, you know, so if you see an ambulance or a yellow car or something like that. But the idea is there aren't a lot of yellow cars on the road, but you will suddenly be noticing them. Why? Because there's this part of your mind that looks for evidence of what you hold as true. So it's almost a filter. But when you're looking for yellow cars, you're not looking in a different direction and noticing the red, the blue, the green, and it's just a question of where we're putting our focus. So, again, thinking about that, if we're looking for evidence of times that we don't do well or we can't get that promotion or we're not good public speaking. We'll find it.

Nicole Freeman [00:30:04]:
That's all still true, but would it be more helpful to focus somewhere else and look on look at the opposite?

Carla Miller [00:30:11]:
That makes sense. And it is so easy, isn't it, to get stuck in that, just looking for the evidence that backs up what you already believe and handily avoiding the evidence that actually says the opposite. And that's when it's useful to have someone actually show that to you so that you pay attention to it. Okay. Great. So that helps us understand a little bit more about what's going on in our brain and and almost how it exacerbates itself. So if we are overthinkers, if someone's listening to this and going, yep, Nicole has totally been describing me, and, actually, I'm driving myself slightly mad, how do we start to change that? What do we need to do so that we're thinking a healthy level rather than overthinking?

Nicole Freeman [00:30:59]:
So I think there's kind of 2 strategies or two ways of looking at it. And you touched on that earlier where you were talking about tapping into emotions. So there's the mind piece, and you were saying, you know, you do reframing. So there's some mind strategies, but there's also getting into your body strategies. And I think that there's both. So in terms of your body, because that was the one I I think that you spoke about, but also I think people are perhaps less familiar with, there's some things that you can do to interrupt the thought process. So if you like to get out of your head and into your body. And some of those are things that I'm sure lots of your listeners already do.

Nicole Freeman [00:31:33]:
You know, mindfulness, meditation, grounding, breathing, those kinds of things. Or anything that works for you personally. So, you know, when you talk to people and you say, when's the when's the moment that you're in flow or when do you have your best ideas? You know, often people will say, it's when I'm on a run, it is for me, or I'm in a yoga class or I'm in the shower. You know, you think about those times. Those are the times that you're out of your head and into your body. So what are the things that work for you? Because, you know, running might work for me, Hill walking works for you, but it won't work for everybody. So it's finding your thing. And I think the thing I would say about meditation, and I put my hands up.

Nicole Freeman [00:32:13]:
I don't know if if you've experienced the same, but I find this often with clients, that people say, oh, you should meditate. That'd be great for getting into your body. And then you're lying there thinking, I've got to pick little Johnny up from the supermarket. Well, I've got sorry, if I'm not from the supermarket, from school. I've got to get this from the supermarket. I've got to do this for work, and this is behind with my client. And we're running that list. And then, of course, that thought comes in like, oh, can't even meditate.

Nicole Freeman [00:32:38]:
I'm the only person that can't meditate. Why can't I, you know, relax and clear my mind? And so what I would offer as an observation is sometimes maybe a guided meditation where somebody is almost talking at you. So those can be quite helpful. So don't rule out meditation. I am by no means a meditation expert, but that can play to overthinkers. So I think some of those things. And that can also be small distractions. So that could just be making a cup of coffee.

Nicole Freeman [00:33:07]:
It could be sitting outside in the sunshine. It doesn't have to be big time consuming things. It could be, you know, affirmations, if those work for you, or just looking at something on a screensaver. So anything like that, that, that interrupts the cycle. And then I think also things that boost your confidence. So that could be things like, you know, gratitude or making a list of all the things that you've done well. You know, we were talking about that sort of yellow car idea. There might be things that aren't going well, but actually let's be more helpful and boost your confidence by looking at what is going well.

Nicole Freeman [00:33:43]:
You know, maybe there's feedback that you've got at work. Maybe there's, I don't know, whatever those things might be. And I'm a bit of a Brene Brown fan, so all of that piece around compassion, just being kind to yourself and also asking for help, I think, and being vulnerable can be really helpful because like you said, we need to, you know, connect with other people and realize that it's not just us, that lots of people are in the same boat and asking for help is can be really powerful. So So I think those are sort of the body pieces. And then on the mind stuff, I think as you said, it's there are strategies that you can use and different people find different ones helpful. So for some people, it's writing it down, and that could be a to do list, so you're not carrying overnight, for example. It could be giving yourself a worry time. Some of my clients do this where they just say, okay.

Nicole Freeman [00:34:36]:
I'm just gonna overthink for 5 minutes, and I might write all of that down. And then I I know that I've given myself the time, but then I can move on. So it could be that. It could be looking at that bigger picture. And things like the wheel of life can be really there because I think, particularly, as you said, if you're very stressed in a work environment, you're taking that bird's eye view and you're looking at maybe other areas of your life and realizing where you can get some of that that balance. Could also be noticing triggers. I think some for some people, they notice that worry happens at a certain time of day or a certain place, so just that you're building up a picture. And the things that I like best are are probably the again, flipping it to the more positive.

Nicole Freeman [00:35:19]:
So, actually, how can we reframe this? You know, what would a friend say in this situation? What would we say to somebody else? What else is going on? Gratitude wins, you know, much of the same things. And I think some of the questions and, actually, I I wrote some down that that clients find useful. Asking yourself what's the worst that can happen, which sounds a bit of a negative question, but can actually be really powerful because then you are sort of crystallising what is the thing that you are afraid of. Or, you know, if that wasn't true, so if that fear is, for example, I don't know, you know, I'm gonna make an idiot of myself on the podcast. If that wasn't true, if I knew I was going to smash it, well, how would I show up differently? So again, getting into more of that positive mindset. One of my clients always asks herself, what is true? What is true for me right now? Which can be quite a nice one. And I think maybe just to the body point, getting back into the body, what can I do now that feels good? If you're not focusing or you are stressed, would it just be a cup of coffee? What would it be that can be useful? So, yeah, a list of things, and I guess it's like a buffet. You choose what works for you.

Carla Miller [00:36:36]:
Absolutely. I, just did a little dance party before coming on the podcast. That's often what I do. When I remember to make myself feel good, I put on a bit of a little bit of Dua Lipa and had a little boogie around because I wanted to get into the right mindset for this, but I was just feeling a little bit like, yeah, I'll get my my energy up and feel positive. So I find that super helpful. And that question about what's the worst that can happen really, really helps me. So I will often think through because that's the stuff I worry about. I don't really worry about little stuff anymore, but I will still worry about the big stuff, especially we're about to turn 50.

Carla Miller [00:37:13]:
Everyone's getting older, including me. Like, who knows what the future holds? And I do worry about that stuff, but I will go through in my head, right, what's the worst that can happen? And then I say to myself, well, what can I put in place to help? So even if the worst case scenario is highly unlikely like, I know if the business stopped working, I would never end up on the streets. Like, my parents would always take in me and my son, so that's fine. But even if, like, I get health anxiety sometimes. I sometimes think, what if I get sick or or whatever? I have got things in place to pay myself, to look after Charlie if something happens with me. And that gives me quite a lot of peace actually, because I'm like, okay. So I have put in place plans for the absolute worst case scenario. So I don't need to think about that anymore.

Carla Miller [00:38:00]:
If it happens, it happens. But that's all under control. Like, when I say under control, I just mean in my head, I've ticked the box of have I done everything I can do there. Right now, I just need to get on with living life and making the most of what I do have in this moment and being grateful for that. So I find that I'm I'm sure it doesn't work for for everybody. Someone else might get stuck in that thought. But for me, I'm like, okay. It's the worst that can happen.

Carla Miller [00:38:24]:
Can I do anything now that would be useful? And then just be able to tick that box and go, okay. I don't need to think about that anymore. I've thought about it once. Never need to think about it again.

Nicole Freeman [00:38:36]:
I think it's a great strategy, and thank you for, you know, sharing that piece about music as well. Music and movement are so important. So, yeah, you we can all have a boogie or I've got a Shaq team out on the floor, which I don't use enough, but, you know, lying down and just having a bit of a break. But I think what you say is really important. You use that word control. We can only control the things we can control. So if you've you've effectively funneled down your thinking to what's the worst that could happen, is it that I'm homeless on the street, and you've reassured yourself by looking at the things that you can control, and then you can just go, okay. I've done what I can do.

Nicole Freeman [00:39:10]:
And actually, is worrying about the rest of it serving me? Probably not because I'm not being in the present. As you say, I'm worrying about a future that that hasn't happened yet, and I've done what I can to protect that. So that that's a a logical response. And, yeah, you've you've reached the limit of what you can do and made peace with that.

Carla Miller [00:39:30]:
Yeah. So it works for me, but, oh, you shared so many different questions there. So I think you've given us such a lot of different things, and we're all different, aren't we? And so it's it's for someone, if you're listening to this thinking, like, what was the one thing I heard there? You will have had lots of insights that will help you understand yourself better, but what's the one action I could take or thing I could try from all those different things that Nicole has just shared and see what works. It's an experiment, isn't it? We all try different things. I try yoga, but my shoulders don't like yoga. I cannot do the sun salutation. They should take that out of yoga, and then I would like yoga. But can you find a yoga class with no sun salutation? No.

Carla Miller [00:40:06]:
You cannot. So I do a little bit of tai chi, and I dance. And that does the same thing of connecting my body and my mind a little bit and just bringing me back into my body a bit. So so find what works for you, whether it's the the mind tips or the body tips. Now if people want to work with you, Nicole, where can they go to find out more about you? And, is there a particular way that you like to work with people?

Nicole Freeman [00:40:30]:
First of all, probably easiest, you can find me on my website, which is nicolefreeman.co.uk. And I offer people, like, a mind what I call a mindset MOT, which is just a chance for us to get to know each other and talk through some of these things. I'm super happy to do that if anybody wants to reach out. My email and all my details and booking links and stuff are on there. I'm also on LinkedIn.

Carla Miller [00:40:50]:
Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for coming and sharing this. I know this is gonna be a super popular episode because when I look at my, I look at the most popular episodes to date, and they were linked to worry and overthinking. But, also, at the moment, when I look at my Google and why people are going to my website, it's often about overthinking. So this is which isn't obviously what I specialize in. So it's obviously a big issue. So it's brilliant that there's people out you out there like you who obviously coach on lots of different issues and challenges that professionals have, but I know that you have a real particular interest in this. Thank you so much, Nicole, for coming on and sharing your insights.

Carla Miller [00:41:26]:
And I know that people are gonna find it super useful.

Nicole Freeman [00:41:29]:
Well, thank you. It's been lovely to talk to you. And I think the fact that you see so many people asking about it shows that it's something that's really common for all of us.

Carla Miller [00:41:38]:
Yeah. Let's normalize that. There's nothing wrong with this if we're overthinking, but if it's getting in our way, you've had some insights and tips here that will help you to calm it down a little bit.