Carla Miller [00:00:02]:
In today's episode, we are talking about Gen Z and about intergenerational teams. And this has really come about because there seems to be an increasing amount of tension and misunderstanding and misaligned expectations between those who are younger in the workplace and those who are millennial or Gen X. And it was really interesting to discover that my guest, Alex Atherton, had written a book all about this called the Snowflake Myth. So Alex is a former headteacher with 25 years experience in education, and he's now a leadership coach, author and trainer. And he's on a mission to help leaders see Gen Z through a clearer, more accurate lens. In this conversation, we talk about the real drivers behind Gen Z's mindset. And I came away with some really useful insights and things that I just hadn't thought of before, but really resonated with actually what I've seen working with that generation. We talk about the biggest friction points between Gen Z and other generations at work, some of the myths that exist, and we get really practical talking about how can we make sure that we do recruit and retain and really develop and support this group of individuals and get the best out of them in the workplace.

Carla Miller [00:01:31]:
It's a really interesting conversation. I hope that you enjoy it too. And in the show notes, you'll find links to Alex's book, website and LinkedIn. So if this is something you want to explore further, then you'll be able to go and do that. I'm Carla Miller, leadership coach, founder of Impactful Training, and this is Influence and Impact for Leaders, the podcast that helps leaders like you increase your impact and build a happy and high performing team. Each episode delivers focused, actionable insights you can implement immediately to be better at your job without working harder. Ready to increase your team's impact. Let's get started.

Carla Miller [00:02:14]:
So, welcome to the show, Alex. Great to have you here.

Alex Atherton [00:02:18]:
Thank you very much for having me on. Thanks, Carla.

Carla Miller [00:02:21]:
So what I'd love to do is kick off by you telling us a little bit about your background and what prompted you to write this book.

Alex Atherton [00:02:27]:
Well, background was in education. So for around 25 years I worked in schools, secondary schools, and just over half that time I was a headteacher. And I came out of that a few years ago and I started to notice that the generation of kids I'd been responsible for in those schools were being described in various unkind, rude ways that I didn't appreciate. And then it sort of got worse. So it started out with a certain corner of the British printed press. All right, if I call that. So I thought, okay, well, you know, whatever. Young people aren't what they used to be.

Alex Atherton [00:03:13]:
That's quite a clickable news item. But then when I started hearing it, hearing the same things described by my peers and then also by clients. So my own coaching clients were saying, you know, really need to talk about our young staff. And. Yes. And we can't find young staff. When we find them, we can't keep them. When we've got them, we don't understand them.

Alex Atherton [00:03:37]:
All right, and what you want to focus on today's session, how I deal with these snowflake younger staff. I thought, yeah, okay, I think I can see. I could see there was a problem to be solved, but also there was just such a dissonance between my own experience and what I was hearing. I decided to pursue it. And once I could see the same issues happening all over the place, I thought, okay, I'm going to turn this into a broader piece of work.

Carla Miller [00:04:04]:
Okay, so tell us a little bit more. What are you trying to achieve with your book then?

Alex Atherton [00:04:10]:
I'm trying to get my peer group, I suppose, as a starting point. But if I broaden that out to anyone who's leading or managing an organization, HR folks, L& D folks, to try and see the world through a younger generation's eyes. So it's not that I want to be a representative for them. I'm very certain they don't want a representative, and if they did, they certainly wouldn't be choosing me. But I did think my generation needs to do a little bit of listening. And if they can have a stronger understanding on their perspective for career choices, workplace behaviors and so on, then this was going to be a mutual benefit. They were going to be able to get the young employees they really wanted and they were going to hang around and the employees were going to be in jobs that they really wanted to be and it was going to work out. So, you know, I started out with a.

Alex Atherton [00:05:11]:
Either a tagline that I was the person who explained Gen Z to Gen X or the ex secretary school head teacher who heard the word snowflake once too often. But I think what it's become actually is it's not just about connecting a generational gap. It's about what you do when that is connected. And that's the bigger piece, if you like.

Carla Miller [00:05:35]:
That makes sense. And it's interesting you embrace the word snowflake in your book title because I hate the word snowflake. It is so Daily Mail, isn't it? So tell me your thinking with the Book title.

Alex Atherton [00:05:49]:
Yeah, I went through various, various choices, but in the end, it just kept coming back to that word. I mean, there's. There's also the idea that every snowflake comes from a particle and they're all individual, you know, and there's that angle and. And when they all come together, they form a blizzard. I quite like that. But in the end, I thought my starting point should be to knock down the word that. That annoyed me the most. You know, it started and we were.

Carla Miller [00:06:21]:
Having conversation beforehand where I was like, I'm not even really sure about when you become millennial versus Gen Z, so talk to me about how you are defining those generations.

Alex Atherton [00:06:32]:
Okay, so first of all, I would say that the concept of generations has got its limits. It's got quite severe limits. I find it a really useful way of analyzing changes over time and how they impact on outlooks and behaviors. So 15 to 20 years is enough time, in my view, at least for this have been enough social, economic, political, technological change. We think, all right, the people who grow up their formative years through this period, you know, will. Will come into their young professional lives with looking at the world in a different way. And it's a cohort issue. So you may.

Alex Atherton [00:07:18]:
There's elements of this you might keep throughout your life in that way, but it's not a guillotine between them. And you'll see different versions of the different years. And I think that's okay, actually, because I think it's quite good to have blurred boundaries. It's not, Congratulations, Mr. And Mrs. Smith, you've had a millennial. It doesn't go on your birth certificate or your passport, all those kinds of things. So in terms of what they are, it is quite a new concept.

Alex Atherton [00:07:46]:
So you don't, you know, if you go quite used to dividing up periods of time to analyze it like, you know, dinosaur ages or Tudors, stewards, whatever, but it's sort of 20th century onwards and often defined in retrospect. So, you know, silent generation, where children were apparently seen, seen but not heard, running from after the First World War up to end of the second. Then the baby boomers called that for obvious reasons, but it wasn't a phrase that was used until they'd pretty much all been born then. So that goes. It's around mid-60s, Gen X generation X generation that didn't want to be defined apparently from mid-60s to around 1980. Millennials or generation Y who were due to come of age around the turn of the millennium. So 90 millennials, early 80s to mid-90s and Generation Z, I assume we're going to stick with Z rather than Z. We've started now I, I take as a.

Alex Atherton [00:08:50]:
From 97 to 2012. But you know, when I first started this work, I was actually using a slightly different set, set of dates. But when I was working with organizations and they would send to me what they had, they would end up using the dates I've just given to you. So my focus is really on the older half, those in the workplace now, those in the twenties rather than those in their teens, some of whom are working, but most school, college training, university.

Carla Miller [00:09:22]:
And what's going to come after Zed?

Alex Atherton [00:09:25]:
Well, you go back to beginning of the, I mean, Alpha is what they've become called. And there you've got. If we're working on 15 full calendar years, we're not far off them all being born. So they're in secondary school now at the top end, nursery at the bottom end. But we're not far off the point where they're going to be in the workplace. You know, around the end of this decade or 2030, they will be coming through.

Carla Miller [00:09:54]:
Okay, so I am Gen Z raising a gen. A Alpha, Alpha child who will love being called an Alpha child. Okay. So, and, and I was saying to you earlier, like, there have always been intergenerational issues in the workplace. I remember going into the workplace and going, this is what work is. I don't think I'm suited to this. Yeah, I think it took. It was five years where I was like, I really don't think working is for me.

Carla Miller [00:10:20]:
Before I eventually found something, I was like, okay. And then we used to, as we got older, heard things about millennials and their expectations. And so now those millennials are line managing Gen Z and finding that challenging. But having said that, it does feel like there is more of a dissonance between these generations than there has been previously. Do you think that that's the case?

Alex Atherton [00:10:49]:
I do think it's a very significant shift and a couple of big things I'd point out. So all the generations had the opportunity, I do think was an opportunity to grow up with an analog life where your every move wasn't captured, where you didn't have a camera everywhere and then, and then move to a digital world. So you could, as far as the workplace is concerned, there was a certain set of soft skills that went with it, particularly if you were, you were working in a lot more workplaces before you had your first proper job. So when you have known nothing other than a smartphone Broadband, tv, apps, world. I do think that matters because there's, there's something that everyone else has had which they, which they have not. There's a lot of skills and so on that comes with it and opportunities. But I also think that's at the root of, of some of the issues that come out of the workplace. I think the other is just a financial situation.

Alex Atherton [00:12:00]:
Financially. Their inheritance is shocking, I think. And in terms of their ability, whatever their level of agency, to move through life's key milestones should they wish to progress through them, whether it's about having children or buying property or getting married, they are a lot more restricted and that includes retirement. Actually. I think we're dealing with a generation where many of them have no prospect of retiring at the moment unless they're going to inherit. And fewer of them are going to inherit because the way things have gone with property, they're not going to inherit if their parents are always renting and retiring later and later either. So it's not, that's not a happy set of circumstances. And I think that is informing how some of these things are playing out.

Carla Miller [00:12:56]:
It's interesting, isn't it? And they're obviously at the bottom end of the salary scale at the moment. And the cost of living crisis that turned out to just be permanent and that has been, I notice it in my pocket and I'm in a well established role. Must be well nigh impossible for them when they're on entry level jobs.

Alex Atherton [00:13:18]:
Yeah. And it's taken away. Yeah, it's taken away a lot. I mean, they seem to be far more prepared stroke resigned to stay living at home if that's an option than I would have been at the same age. And that's had other, you know, if, you know, if, if you're not paying rent then there's disposable income that, you know, that goes with that. But it's really poor in a way that, you know, I think it's half my generation to appreciate actually. And for those who went to university, the incredible debt, I mean, it works a different way. I know you've got to be earning and all those kinds of things, but you know, if you're earning young professional money and you're over the, you're above the threshold for paying back your student loan and tax boundaries never move up, then you are being perpetually squeezed, plus subject to rent and, you know, bills and all those other things.

Carla Miller [00:14:21]:
Yeah, that makes sense. And that would explain why there's a lot of requests for pay rises as well. Because they physically need them.

Alex Atherton [00:14:28]:
Well, there is, but I think something that a lot of the organizations I speak to, they don't understand the extent to which they've got additional income streams. So I think at the moment there's approximately 350,000 Gen Z on Companies House now as directors. And for many of them, you know, we've got more companies than we've ever had and for many of them it's the side hustle or it's the thing that if they could scale it up, they would. But you've got an awful. And that's just, that's just company's house, you know, not sell traders or whatever else. So there's an awful lot of young professionals in the 20s who have got a 5 to 9 on top of the 9 to 5. And that's, you know, in terms of energy levels and I need to go on time and all that kind of thing. But also it means they're developing a lot of skills and interests that their organizations don't know about and there's some mutual benefit from that if they did.

Carla Miller [00:15:34]:
Okay. And so do you think this Snowflake label tells us more about Gen Z or about are the older generations discomfort with, with change of different mindsets and approaches?

Alex Atherton [00:15:46]:
Yeah, it's a perpetual issue, I think. I mean, I certainly had it, you know, I grew up in 1980s South Yorkshire, you know, while the strike was going on and you know, all these kinds of things. And, and I remember being told very clearly that I was, you know, soft as whatever for, you know, doing a job that required a pen or worse still there was a computer in the office. So, you know, as we were moving from primary secondary production to tertiary en masse, you know, I remembered that myself and, and I think the same things have been, you know, the baby boomers had parents who are, you know, involved in the war, you know, with rationing, you know, and my mum's big fear for me, with reason, was that if I had to go and fight, if I got called up, I wouldn't be very good at it, you know, and should have been, should have been right about that. I do think we can all be guilty of selective generational amnesia. I think that is true. I think there is a convenience and so on that people have got through the phones, you know, and if you've known nothing other than that, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do. But some people can have a very fixed idea of what it's like to be young while also forgetting quite a lot of Important features of their own childhoods and what they were like as young people.

Carla Miller [00:17:16]:
Yeah. And we're going to dive into some of the points of friction that we see between Gen Z and other generations at work. When I was looking for someone to interview on this topic, I was thinking about what seemed to be mismatched expectations. So line managers who are millennials or potentially Gen X, having to have stuck to certain rules in the workplace and certain expectations, and then a new generation coming in going, well, that's not for me, that's not reasonable. I'd like to set some healthy boundaries. I don't want to do that. And it's a funny place to be in the middle where you're like half respect that. And I half think, well, I still have to do it and it's my job to make you do it, so what do I do here? And I think when I was early in the workplace, it was a very different style of management.

Carla Miller [00:18:13]:
I'm sure you will have experienced that as well. There was a lot more directive management. And now we expect a lot from our managers and leaders in terms of wellbeing and inclusivity and all these things, as well as expecting as much as we ever did on performance. So it feels like there's a lot of managers that are a little bit stuck between a rock and a hard place and don't really know how to get the best out of this younger generation coming through. And so that's what I'd really like to focus on today. Not the problem. But what do we as line managers need to do differently to be able to understand this generation, to be able to get the best out of them? And where do we, for want of a better word, compromise. And where do we go? Now that's a clear best boundary that we expect of everybody in the workplace.

Carla Miller [00:19:03]:
That's what having a job means.

Alex Atherton [00:19:05]:
Right, okay. So, yeah, these are, you know, these are very typical kinds of concerns. So if just go to the broader issue around who's recruited. I think it's been quite typical for organizations to portray themselves in the same way over time, recruit in the same way, and suddenly the calibre quantity of applicant is not what it used to be. And often when someone stops me at a conference and say, well, I heard what you said, but this young person did this, did this, did this, did this. My conclusion is generally that I think you've appointed the wrong people. And then they say, well, that's all. Who applied? Well, fine, but.

Alex Atherton [00:19:56]:
But actually I think that means you need to look at how you present yourself because and particularly the job market where it's at. I mean, at this, this date in question, we've just had the 38th monthly reduction in a row of the number of job vacancies out there. So the job market is, is shocking as of now, and those vacancies are plummeting, but they will still. Gen Z. Gen Z is far more likely to scroll past something that doesn't connect with them. So in some cases, organizations need to look at how they put themselves out there, need to look at how they're coming across. You know, does it look as though they've really thought through what they're about? Does it look as though what they're about has any connection to how they are, you know, all these, all these kinds of things. I think on top of that, the average young professional these days is coming in with a much lower level of experience in the physical workplace, if that's what we're predominantly talking about here than used to be the case.

Alex Atherton [00:21:06]:
There was a survey done a couple of years ago. It was less than a third of teenagers had actually done a proper work experience, in some cases because the employees weren't offering them, in some cases because the schools wanted them to do their exams and not have two weeks out, you know, GCC and A level. And it's not that we don't have supermarkets and Costas and so on with, with those young age. But that doesn't, it probably doesn't replicate a lot of the jobs that they want to do. And there's a lot of them that may have been earning, they may have their own business. But if you've been buying and selling online, say, or if you're doing through a laptop at home, you've not been engaging with people 10, 20, 30, 40 years older than you, who might have very different perspectives, very different ways in which they may express those perspectives and all those kinds of things. So I would say the onboarding phase of them coming in that is a far more vulnerable time than it used to be because their reference points for work may not be what you expect. And I get quite a lot of these days of, do I really have to explain that to them? I say, well, actually, in this day and age, you probably do more than you might think is reasonable.

Alex Atherton [00:22:25]:
But the academic outcomes of this generation are off the scale. And they've done that because they've had good input and because they've had high quality resources to work from. So they're starting from a lower base. But if you invest in that Phase they will take off the same as anybody else and potentially more because that's how they're coming out with all these first class degrees, A stars, ninth grades, you know, and so on. So there's a real practical thing of everything from recruitment until got through your first four weeks. And that phase I think is particularly different. Once they're up and running, then I think a lot of these issues can, can melt away.

Carla Miller [00:23:10]:
I think that's a really interesting point actually, I was just reflecting on. So I coach three gen zers, which isn't normally. I normally work with managers and leaders, but that's how it's worked out. And they are all very bright, very driven, did very well at school, all experience high levels of anxiety in the workplace and all. When I talk to them about their challenges they have at work are not getting the support that they need from their line managers. Their line managers are very much leaving them to sink or swim on their own. They're not giving them that level of information and then I'm having to coach them to optimize, ask for what they need. So that's really interesting.

Carla Miller [00:23:53]:
It's not even just those, those unspoken rules of work. How do you use a photocopier? What even is the point for photocopier when I have a phone kind of thing? It is the, you know, they need instruct clear instructions and they need to be supported, not left to sink or swim.

Alex Atherton [00:24:12]:
Yeah, absolutely. But I'd also say it's funny actually, I was talking to somebody this morning whose company is doing really good things with this and I think there's no need to dilute your expectations of what you're looking for at all. If anything, raise them a bit and express them in such a way that's going to put people off. So for example, the company I speak to this morning, they're five days a week in the office and that's the beginning and the end of it and that's the culture and they're super clear about that up front. They don't wait until they got the job to find out, you know, from you click on the advert, you find out. And so whilst you might put a lot of people off who would otherwise have applied and when you're struggling for applications or calibre, that doesn't feel like a good thing to do. But it's only when you are really clear about what you want and what you stand for and you're expressing it, I would say in a pretty unvarnished way, you know, clear, certainly not with polish or sheen, you will then present yourself as the absolute bullseye for the person who is looking for it. And if you don't do that, you're missing out on the calibre for whom it would be a good fit.

Carla Miller [00:25:33]:
Okay, interesting. Now there are. You go through a number of myths about Gen Z in your. You said Gen Z, Gen Z. And I'm thinking it probably does sound better Gen Z. But I've started the Z, so I'll stick with it.

Alex Atherton [00:25:47]:
I'll stick with whatever you want.

Carla Miller [00:25:50]:
So I thought we'd explore three of those.

Alex Atherton [00:25:53]:
Okay.

Carla Miller [00:25:54]:
And in particular what the myth is and how as line managers, whatever generation we may be, we can create group working environments for people of all generations. But particularly thinking about Gen Z. So the first one, I think the myth is around laziness. Is that right?

Alex Atherton [00:26:12]:
Yeah. So I had employers saying to me that they just leave on the dot. There is no above and beyond. They will, you know, if it's, if it's a lunch break effect time, they take it. If you don't arrive till this time, it's there. The, the whole sort of ethic about wanting it and going beyond job descriptions so on is. Is a real problem compared to how it used to be. So my explanation behind that.

Alex Atherton [00:26:46]:
Well, a, you know, again, differences within generations are far bigger than differences between. So I'm not saying that no one's lazy the same. True to me. But when I first started getting this from employers, I said just go back to them and ask them where they're going at the end of the day. And quite often it was they're actually going to run their own business or they're going to another job. And either that was because they need two incomes to meet the cost of living or they're spreading their bets for the next time a pandemic or a global financial crash happens. They're actually managing their energy a bit because they've got a second shift coming up. But what I got from the focus groups of the Gen Z is I was talking to was there is a sense of, you know, they're paying rent to someone about the same age as their boss and that keeps going up.

Alex Atherton [00:27:41]:
You know, they're really restricted in what they can do. So to be asked to go above and beyond when they're already really struggling to meet ends meet and so on is, you know, is a problem. So in some cases I think there's a need when it back to the onboarding to be really clear about what this job means, what it means to be Employed, what it means to be employed here. And actually some of the most direct messaging I've heard has come from people in Gen Z who were running their own business. You know, the whole, you know, they said no. So I say to them right at the start, sometimes you need to wait, you need to be here till 8 o' clock. And I can't give you much warning because we're trying to get a deal over the line with the states. So they're told and they know.

Alex Atherton [00:28:29]:
I think it's when these things come as a surprise and the boss or line manager can't see why that would be a surprise in the world of work that you end up with the issues. So they are. Young generation is very, very used to having things spelled out in detail. You know, if you want to cook Christmas dinner, you know, There's a thousand YouTube videos out there taking you through step one to 10, one to 50, one to 80, whatever, working you through each thing. They're used to detail, they're used to granular, they're used to metrics. But if you make assumptions that they know what working life is like and so on, you can come unstuck very quickly.

Carla Miller [00:29:11]:
That's so interesting on that granular point. I wouldn't have thought about that. But yeah, that's how they are. They've absorbed their information, isn't it? And some of those things you talked about, I mean, to me they sound like healthy boundaries. Like when I was a director, I would be, let's go home on time. I would always book something in the evening to lead by example on that. Ideally, we want to craft jobs that can be done in the hours we're paying people to work. But having said that, what I have seen across the board is people being asked to go above and beyond and just being given the volume of work that means they have to.

Carla Miller [00:29:47]:
So what happens to that work with Gen Z if they're like, right, I have to leave at this time, but the work's been passed down to them, then what happens? Presumably that causes issues.

Alex Atherton [00:29:58]:
Yeah, well, it can do, I think on average, very interested in the idea of efficiency. You know, they've grown up knowing exactly how many people look to the Instagram post, how many steps they've done, what the heart rate might be, you know, all these, all these kinds of things. They will query what seems to them to be a long way round. And I think that's often where organizations miss out, because if you want to improve a process or to automate something or to review the workflow Your young staff are probably in the best place to be able to do that. They might well wonder, well, why are you asking me at 4:00'? Clock? Something you could have asked me at 10. But again, if you stress from the outset, well, your contract is these hours, but actually this is what we expect. It's an informed choice and you might lose people at the interview stage, you might lose people at the application stage, but you're setting up the expectation from the beginning. If they don't want it, they don't want it.

Alex Atherton [00:31:04]:
But again, you'll have a better chance of getting those you really, really want.

Carla Miller [00:31:08]:
I really like that point about how they can see more efficient ways to do things. I actually even see that when I'm running. I quite often run workshops online. It's maybe 90 minutes and a range of age is there, but it will be the younger people who are like, well, have you tried this? Or what about this software? Or why don't we do it this way? And everyone's like, oh, yeah, that's a.

Alex Atherton [00:31:30]:
Really good idea, definitely. This is definitely a quality over quantity, definitely. And they've lived through an age where they see the apps they use every day update three times a week, rather than, we're all stuck with this version of Encarta for the next two years, aren't we, folks? You know, which is where things were for those who remember that, you know, wikipedia on a CD Rom 20 to 30, 30 years ago.

Carla Miller [00:31:59]:
Yeah, it's interesting actually, just thinking maybe what we've been thinking traditionally is we need to train Gen Z to think like us, when actually we need to do it the other way around.

Alex Atherton [00:32:11]:
Well, it's got to be both. It's got to be both because somebody older will by definition have had more experience of dealing with people say, you know, those kinds of things. But anybody with the wherewithal to say, set up their own thing or be running their own charity, you know, they're not. You know, they're not, they're not spending their evenings drinking in pubs in the same way. For certain. They're not going out for cigarette breaks at 11 o'. Clock. There's a lot, you know, all those other kinds.

Alex Atherton [00:32:44]:
No one's coming into work with a hangover in terms of productivity. There's a lot of gains there, I think, compared to years gone by which have been forgotten.

Carla Miller [00:32:55]:
Yeah, you're taking me back to even 10 years ago running a recruitment company where everyone who worked there was a millennial. I wasn't. But yeah, there was a lot of drinking and there was a lot of hangovers going on. Okay, so that's the lazy myth. What's the next myth that you'd like to dismantle?

Alex Atherton [00:33:12]:
I think. Right, the myth of instant, I think I would pick up. So we've all got used to be told that Deliveroo 6 stops away or DPD or whatever it is. So we've all got used to a certain level of convenience. We've all got used to. Even last night I watched Panorama and I didn't wait for it to be at 9 o'.

Carla Miller [00:33:33]:
Clock.

Alex Atherton [00:33:33]:
Right. So we've all got used to a certain level of, of conditioning, you know, online assessments, all those, all those kinds of things on the translation of the workplace is that, well, they've only been here three months, they want a promotion, you know, and all that kind of thing. So again, I think, I think it's wise for some expectations to be, to be marked out in the beginning. But then I also think that if you're laying out the resources and the training and all the rest of it, it's quite possible for someone to, to fly through the system and be competent in doing it. And you know, from my own career, I was a. Next March will be 20 years since I started as a head teacher and I was a very young head teacher at the time. But I didn't, I didn't wait for, you know, why, why do I have to be 10 years for this or, you know, not that I had any great plan, but the idea that you have to live a Gen X paced life because that's what we had, doesn't make any, doesn't make any sense. I think I want to differentiate between concentration span and patience.

Alex Atherton [00:34:47]:
So I know that university exams can work in different ways these days, but the percentage of first class degrees, the percentage of degrees that awarded at first class doubled over the 2010s. And if you have got no concentration span, you know, you're not succeeding in a three hour exam and you're not succeeding as we have in England now, almost zero coursework or controlled assessment and an incredible battering of examinations at GCSE either. I think, you know, patients might be different, but if I look at how patient they're having to be to get on the property ladder, move in with significant other, you know, family, all those kinds of things, they're having to be stupendously patient in a way, in a way that wasn't there before. Having said that, I think they've grown up in an age where collaboration has been seen as the natural thing to do. And a lot of the young professionals I speak to see an organization chart as potentially riddled with inefficiency. And whether they're running their own thing or not at the side, they expect to be able to engage and they don't expect to be told, well, you've got to wait five years to be sitting around that table for your idea to be taken seriously. You know, they've spent their lives being pursued through the streets by whoever they bought socks from or whatever to give feedback, give a review, all these kinds of things they expect ideas matter more than tenure. And there is an expectation of meritocracy and there's an expectation if they want to contribute, that should be seen as a valuable thing.

Alex Atherton [00:36:40]:
And actually the evidence is that they are more likely to be writing to representatives or to be raising money or to or to be doing all kinds of sort of citizenship, active engagement type things. They don't expect to go to work and be a number. And if they're there in their first week and they see something, they're more likely to want to comment on it or contribute to it and not be pushed back the other way.

Carla Miller [00:37:11]:
And I can see all the positives in that. Absolutely. And it's also, we've raised our children differently, haven't we? Like the way that generation were raised is quite different from how we were raised as well. So we're raising them to say what they think and work according to their values and things. And then they get into the workplace and we're like, we're just going to crush your soul, which is pretty much what happened to us. But it's like, do we have to keep crushing people's souls? So what I'd love to do to round up is to just think about what are the skills that leaders that aren't Gen Z can develop and work on in order to really help not only bring the best out of Gen Z, but also help intergenerational teams where there are tensions around what's fair and what's right and what's efficient and what's not.

Alex Atherton [00:38:03]:
Any organization that isn't absolutely clear about what it's about and what it's for has probably, probably a greater tendency to come unstuck now than used to be the case. So I'll give you an example. I did a talk about a year ago, a group of financial institutions, and there was a roundtable bit and somebody said we've all got on our websites the word integrity in massive white letters on a black background and nobody who's young is buying that these days. So I think my generation still has a tendency to see marketing as something that means selective, shiny, show them this bit, not that bit. Whereas what the younger generation is looking for is something really unvarnished and clear. And I would say Gen Z's standards of clarity, authenticity, alignment are a lot higher than the average line manager, you know, CEO twice their, twice their age. They really can see this with the B Corp movement, I think in terms of transparency. And they don't just want to know, are you a B corp or not? What was your score? Why was that your score? What are you going for next time? What are you trying to improve? All those kinds of things.

Alex Atherton [00:39:31]:
And there's an expectation of a certain level of vulnerability in that, in the managers and leaders, which a lot of my peers can find really uncomfortable. They've got a work Persona, this is who they are. To not be that is quite threatening. But I also think a lot of my generation could find quite threatening the idea that the younger generation doesn't need us because they can set up their own thing, they can lead to go do something else and so on. So I think there are lessons to be learned about how they put themselves across what might qualify as a decent experience in onboarding, in appraisal, in being tasked to do particular things, training and so on. So I think there are some things there to learn. But again, that's not within a spirit of you should just expect less or you should put up with things that you really shouldn't have to put up with. I think the clearer, more direct you are, the better.

Alex Atherton [00:40:36]:
So for those organizations that really know what they're about and their people do, you don't have, say, an open plan office with everyone sticking to the corners. Generationally, you've got an expectation that people really are working together there for the same reason. You thrash out how you communicate and I mean, there's so many traps with that. You know, organizations where, you know, they spend an hour to find the message that was. It was in this Slack Channel teams channel who sent that email. You know, they end up with just too many things and they end up with the boss. Well, you know, things must be printed or written down and done in this way and you know, into stereotypes now. But the younger person, you know, wanted the, the voice, the video thing.

Alex Atherton [00:41:25]:
They never have these discussions. So. And I think there's such immense potential now in making the most of all the age diversity that you've got. But if you're not really clear what you're about and what everyone has, the common core, whether you're 25 or 75, you don't have a strong enough foundation to move to that. Once you've got that, then you've got the means to a conversation. You get your people talking to each other. Not so it's always going through someone's senior back again actually talking to each other. Once you've got that, they will find solutions themselves and start sharing their own experience.

Alex Atherton [00:42:04]:
But if you leave them to in effect have several workforces in one based on age or anything else, then you're never going to make the most of what you have.

Carla Miller [00:42:17]:
It's really interesting, isn't it? I mean we could talk for hours about this because there's so many different nuances to it. And I think I also want to caveat it by saying we are to some extent talking about stereotypes, aren't we? Because we're looking for themes and trends and we all know people of various different generations that are showing these trends, traits.

Alex Atherton [00:42:36]:
Yes.

Carla Miller [00:42:37]:
And like I said, I've coached some really dynamic, successful, actually promoted very quickly gen zers who just really, really want to do a good job and are quite anxious about it. So I think it's really, as with any team, it's about recognizing that difference isn't bad. Difference can be a hugely positive thing. If you can have those open conversations.

Alex Atherton [00:43:02]:
About it, that's it, get the dialogue flowing across the whole workplace. Then a lot of things take care of themselves. Actually they're not. It becomes point to point rather than hub and spoke.

Carla Miller [00:43:13]:
Yeah. And so if someone is listening to this and going oh, I need to know more about this or we might need some help with this. How can you help people, Alex?

Alex Atherton [00:43:23]:
There's a few things. So I do a lot of speaking events to, you know, conferences and those kinds of things. I go in and work with managers. It depends what level it is. Sometimes someone sees me at an event, then I go in and do workshops and training with all of their managers. I do a lot of one to one work, either coaching or I do a lot of leadership team coaching. But also they can read the book and then decide what they might need. So I'd recommend any of those things.

Carla Miller [00:43:52]:
Excellent. Well, we will post a link to the book and to Alex's website and his LinkedIn thank you on the show notes so that you can reach out. But thank you because like I said, I've been looking for a guest on this topic. I enjoyed the book. It definitely got me thinking differently and some different angles and questions to bring to some of my coaching sessions for clients on these topics. So thanks for coming and sharing your insights with us.

Alex Atherton [00:44:15]:
Alex, thanks very much for having me. Been a pleasure.

Carla Miller [00:44:24]:
Ra.