Carla Miller [00:00:02]:
Today's episode explores what it means to.

Carla Miller [00:00:04]:
Lead like a woman.

Carla Miller [00:00:06]:
I'm joined by Julia Middleton, founder of Women Emerging and host of the Women Emerging Podcast. She's also a best selling author of if that's Leading, I'm in, as well as two previous books, Leading Beyond Authority and Cultural Intelligence. Julia is deeply committed to helping people from all backgrounds find their own approach to leading and in this episode she shares her groundbreaking approach to leadership through expeditions. And expeditions are a journey where women worldwide explore and define leadership on their own terms. The aim is to empower women across diverse fields to embrace their own unique leadership styles. From that work, Julia has developed a 4e framework to help all of us to lead authentically.

Carla Miller [00:00:55]:
I hope you enjoy this discussion.

Carla Miller [00:00:56]:
Julia is an absolute force of nature, someone I hugely admire, so it was fantastic to get the chance to talk to her. She's a lot of fun as well and has achieved a massive amount in the world of work and society as well as bringing up a huge family too.

Carla Miller [00:01:15]:
So a real role model for many of us.

Carla Miller [00:01:19]:
Some real insights within this interview as well about how we get to the heart of what's important to us in leadership. This is the Influence and Impact podcast for leaders where you'll learn simple, practical strategies to lead with confidence, influence and impact. I'm your host, Carla Miller, leadership coach, author and trainer. Now, before we dive into the episode, I'll give you my normal little update about what's been going on in my world. I have left the area of Cumbria and left my village very temporarily for the first time in ages. I feel like I spend most of my life inside my village, inside my house, inside my office and I've been delivering training in person across the north and it's wonderful to have some clients in the north and to be able to do that face to face work. I've also been setting up a new little experiment for me. So as I turned 50 this year I've got very reflective about what I want to do in my life or what I want to.

Carla Miller [00:02:24]:
I'm a grown up and I love the work I do. I have been doing this particular kind of work, working a lot with women leaders and training on confidence and influence and leadership since 2018 and I have stuck to that consistently, which is most unlike me, but because before this I was never in a job for longer than two and a half years because I get very easily bored and I've stuck to it because I love it, because it makes a difference, because it's super interesting and because it is Finally, a business that pays my bills and that's a really fantastic position to be in. But I have got a desire for more. And whilst I think more used to look like growing the business, making it bigger, increasing turnover, that's shifted. Partly just the reality of the economy we're working in, but also I think I want more belonging, more connection. So I'm doing this mini experiment where I am going to be spending a day, a week volunteering in a local really small school. I think They've got about 30 kids in the school. My sister works there.

Carla Miller [00:03:33]:
Getting to know the kids, getting to know the teachers, being part of that community and hopefully being helpful to them in the classroom. I think that's the nearest I'm going to get to the second career. I always thought I might have one day of being a primary school teacher. That's not all that practical with my financial and childcare situation, but I'm really hoping that I'll get that sense of connection and belonging so that I can have that and also continue to do this work that I love to do with people like you. Anyway, that's my little life update. Maybe other people are reflecting on what they want the rest of their working years to look like and how they might mix that up a bit. Maybe it's a little bit of inspiration or prompting some thoughts for you. Anyway, let's focus on someone way more inspiring than I am, Julia Middleton, and what she has to say about leading like a woman.

Carla Miller [00:04:30]:
Julia, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here on the podcast today.

Julia Middleton [00:04:36]:
As am I, Carla. Thank you for asking me.

Carla Miller [00:04:40]:
Now, I first came across your name many, many years ago when I was working in the charity sector and some of my colleagues went on Common Purpose, something that you led. So what I'd love to start with is just a little bit of your background before Women Emerging, so that we can understand a little bit of your journey towards this creation of yours.

Julia Middleton [00:05:01]:
Haha. Carla. I started, I suppose I started in the private sector and I wasn't happy. Looking back, it was nothing to do with the private sector, it was just that I like small organizations, I don't like big ones. So when I was about 29, I could not resist the temptation to start my own thing and I started Compurpose, which was about investing in the leadership of a city and cities became my life, leadership became my life. My father used to say, fish go dead from the head, you know, I believe that leadership is pretty crucial. So I started Con purpose in the UK and it grew and grew and grew to over 30 years till we were operating in about 120 cities around the world. And loved every minute.

Julia Middleton [00:05:54]:
And during that time, I was always doing other things and starting other things. But that was my main activity, as well as having, as you know, far too many children.

Carla Miller [00:06:05]:
Now, most of us would have thought we've done our good in the world. I might just relax and play with my grandchildren. But no, you decided to start Women Emerging. So why did you decide that the world needed women emerging?

Julia Middleton [00:06:18]:
You know, I don't need to persuade you that it is a ridiculous proposition to lead the world by drawing on only 50% of the talent of the world. So crazy, crazy, you need women to lead. But I was seeing so many women saying, given what we see of leadership around us, we really don't want to do it. And I became very passionate about it. Started doing lots of speeches on women empowerment programs. And after I'd done my talk, I used to say, can I see your reading list? And it was always full of books written by men or by women on how to lead in a man's world. And I didn't think either of them were really going to convince the doubters that they should indeed lead. So I became obsessed that the jigsaw that he is women Empowerment with the really big pieces where I couldn't really contribute that much.

Julia Middleton [00:07:19]:
But there was a small piece of this jigsaw that was missing, and it was a piece that described leading. So the women said they wanted to do it, and I became obsessed about filling that. That piece of the jigsaw.

Carla Miller [00:07:35]:
And what do you think it is about leading as we traditionally define it.

Carla Miller [00:07:39]:
That puts women off so much?

Julia Middleton [00:07:42]:
Hierarchy, authority, dismissal of emotions. I believe that the prerequisite to being good at leading is a fundamental interest in other human beings. And I think that a lot of women know that. But when they try to use the techniques that come naturally as a result of that fundamental interest in other human beings, they tend to be told that they're playing with soft skills. Now, I think those are the toughest skills there are.

Carla Miller [00:08:20]:
So tell us a little bit about women Emerging. So we know why you created it, but what is it?

Julia Middleton [00:08:27]:
So it is largely about running a series of expeditions. And when I see a series, I mean a massive series, there are women all over the world running expeditions. I ran the first one. Aleded got together 24 women from all over the world, from somebody who was head of tax for EY in Beijing and somebody who was leading teach for all in Nigeria. I mean, literally a huge Mixture, the youngest was 24. The eldest was me at 66. And we spent a year talking to women all over the world to try and find a way of expressing leading so that women wanted to do it. At the end, we met at a rather beautiful palace in northern Italy owned by the Rockefeller Foundation.

Julia Middleton [00:09:11]:
We all sat there and stared at each other and realized the rather obvious thing, which is that there is no one way of leading that makes all women want to do it, but that we could encourage women to go on their own expeditions and find their own way to lead, whether they are software engineers or whether they're renewable energy engineers or whether they are the women of Brussels or the women of Riyadh or the women of India or the peace builders across Africa. Lots of different groups of women to go on their own expeditions. And we sort of captured the methodology that we've developed on the first expedition and offered it to them. And, and once we started running all these expeditions, we got all this knowledge coming in and it was sort of screaming in your head, how do we sort of democratize this? How do we make it available to everybody? And a group of wonderful software engineers who all women said, we will create a hub and then use AI to search it and translate it so that all the knowledge that's coming in can be shared with women all over the world. And that became the women emerging hub, which we launched a few months ago and which is already, it's already sort of stacking in the knowledge that are coming out of all these expeditions that are happening all over the world. As simple as that.

Carla Miller [00:10:33]:
Incredible. Now you use the term expeditions. And I have to confess, when I first saw it on the website, I was imagining you all with your huge rucksacks, trekking.

Julia Middleton [00:10:44]:
Well, I'm, I, I have a virtual rucksack. I've always. There's a picture of me on the website and I've got a rucksack on. And everybody tells me I've got to grow up and get rid of that picture, but I love it. You know, expedition is a word. I know it's got bad connotations, but in another level, it has that sort of freshness, it has that curiosity, it, that has, has that we haven't got the answers. We're going to go find them. That joy, that energy, that being together on an expedition.

Julia Middleton [00:11:13]:
So, no, it's, It's. We get 24 women. They meet largely online because usually these are either global expeditions or in cities, for example, where frankly, to all get together, you'd spend three hours Traveling each way. So they're pretty well online where you go out and talk to women and then you come back as a group and share what you've learned. Then you go out and you talk to more women. So it's that, that curiosity, that energy of discovery that is captured in the word expedition. And as the women come together and sort of say, okay, what is, does leading mean for us? If we are renewable energy engineers, we're scientists, that makes us great at some things and truly awful at other things. When we're leading, you know, let's unpick that, let's understand it in ourselves and then let's share it.

Julia Middleton [00:12:07]:
So at the end of the expedition, the women start doing talks and they start, they create online programs for each other. They capture what they've learned on the women emerging hub. So it has a personal journey but also a much wider dissemination to say, this is what we've learned. We offer it to you.

Carla Miller [00:12:28]:
Amazing. And if we look ahead five years, what impact do you think or do you hope that these expeditions, this exploration of what leadership can look like will make on how organizations are run or the global leadership conversation?

Julia Middleton [00:12:45]:
Well, you know, you're asking somebody who's deeply childish and totally unrealistic and, but you know, if you, in five years time, the most delicious outcome would be that next time I'm on a panel talking about leading, you don't get somebody, you know, they ask questions of the four men and then they come to me and say, tell us the emotional side of this. And the answer is, what's wrong with you? Can't you do emotion? Don't you understand that if you're leading people, you have to do emotion, that, that more women just say, yeah, I don't want them to say, I'm a leader because that's a hierarchy, that's a structure, that's a position, that's a business card. I want to set them to say the verb. I'm leading. I'm leading all the time and I'm good at it and I do it my way and I get fantastic outcomes. So you are sort of changing it. And then the most delicious. You know, when I said I have too many children, I do.

Julia Middleton [00:13:47]:
I've got two sons and three daughters. I hope that my daughters will be confidently leading and doing it their way. And I hope my sons will be saying, there is a lot of this that's really useful. I'm going to use it.

Carla Miller [00:14:01]:
Brilliant. And you've, you've captured a lot of what came out of that first Expedition. In your book, if that's leading, I'm in. And within that you talk about your 4e's model which emerged from that first expedition. Could you tell us a little bit about that overall framework?

Julia Middleton [00:14:20]:
Of course. Now when I say my book, that would be pretty dishonest. It's my book weaving together the voices, about 100 women who are involved in the expedition. And their voices are glorious and delicious and they make people smile as they read it. But yes, we created that book and then decided to just publish it on our website so that anybody can download it. But it goes through this concept of the four E's, which is really the framework of an expedition. And you start by saying, as a woman, what is in my essence and how does that influence how I lead? And by essence, we came up with an example of six different bits that could be in your essence that would influence how you lead. Now the challenge is for me to remember them.

Julia Middleton [00:15:13]:
What you held sacred inevitably influences how you lead. Your motherness inevitably influences how you need. And we coined the word motherness because we thought that motherness captures that to, to, to lead. Using motherness, you don't actually have to birth a child. And you know, at the time of the expedition, I was pretty well mothering my 90 year old mother. But motherness and the experience of motherness definitely influences how we lead. It makes us more nurturing and it makes us infinitely more fierce because, you know, try and get a teenager out of bed in the morning, you need fierceness as well as nurturing. So motherless, what you hold sacred, your, your connection with your body, your connection with nature, your experience of trauma, you know, inevitably, if you've experienced trauma, that will influence, for example, how you trust people and that will influence how you lead, inevitably.

Julia Middleton [00:16:18]:
So what are the things that are in your essence that influence how you lead? Let's start at that point. So the second E is elements. So if motherness is in your essence, then that might appear out as two elements, one fierceness, the other nurturing. Another one would be ingenuity. Because we all know that if you have children, you've got to be ingenious to find solutions to the moment when they start crying and when the, when they all start crying at the same time. You learn all kinds of skills that are useful to your leading out of motherness. So essence produces elements of leading and that then takes you into the actual experience, the reality of leading. The third E, because we were meeting so many women who thought about their essence, but then when they started leading, there was no connectivity with it at all.

Julia Middleton [00:17:19]:
They just adapted or adopted whatever they were told to do, they themselves never appeared through. So how do you actually take essence and elements and then express it daily in your leading? For example, how would I lead a meeting? A team meeting? One of the most important things you do when you're leading is leading a team meeting. So, for example, I would never, ever, ever lead a team meeting unless in a basement. I would never do it in a basement. You've got to have windows in the room. If you're leading a team meeting. You've got to be able to see the sky. That's because nature is in my essence, and it sort of plays out.

Julia Middleton [00:18:04]:
So how do you do this in reality? And then the truth is, the fourth E is sort of, to us, was almost. We ended up defining leading as generating energy. It's generating energy in yourself, energy in the people around you, your stakeholders, your team, your colleagues, and also in the very air around you. And somebody corrected me the other day and said it's not just generating, it's releasing energy. And she's absolutely right. But the fourth E is that if you get essence, elements and expression lined up, learning from each other, then you begin to generate the energy of leading. And. And it's that energy that's so compelling.

Julia Middleton [00:18:55]:
And it's a huge responsibility because, you know, you can take people in the wrong direction, but that energy has to then be rooted back in your essence, because if it's not, you lose all sight of why you're doing it.

Carla Miller [00:19:11]:
That really resonates, especially the. The energy part. So much of. Of leading and engaging with people in any way, to be honest, is about.

Carla Miller [00:19:21]:
The energy you bring.

Carla Miller [00:19:22]:
The energy, the space you create for others to safely bring their energy as well.

Julia Middleton [00:19:28]:
And the fact that your own energy, I mean, you know, my problem is never producing energy. My problem is I create far too much energy. And everybody around sort of sits there going, oh, Julia's on one now again. So, you know, it's calibrating that energy and figuring out when you. Julia, frankly, you should shut up for a while and when you should really, really be in there. So there's a lot in energy.

Carla Miller [00:19:56]:
There is. I always think that when I get hired to speak or to work with groups, sometimes it's about the content, but actually what really makes a difference is that shift in energy. And it helps people think about what's possible for them or feel like they can lead in a way that's aligned. And that for me, as you were speaking, the word alignment really came through because it's aligning to those core, what I would call values. But values has been totally overused. It's who you are. Yeah, that essence. Yeah.

Carla Miller [00:20:27]:
And I imagine with some people, they might even come up with some other essences beyond those ones that you have identified.

Julia Middleton [00:20:33]:
Big time. Big time. You know, some people, as with a group the other day, well, take back to my renewable energy engineers. What is in their essence is science. And that gives them a certain relationship with data and with answers and perfection. And that makes them infinitely better as leaders. And it makes them very, very weak at the same time. So science might be in your essence, music might be in your essence, a place might be in your essence for everybody.

Julia Middleton [00:21:10]:
It's slightly different. So one of the things I loved about the four E's is it's a series of buckets. And then you choose how you fill those buckets, depending on who you are.

Carla Miller [00:21:22]:
And so in the book it talks about going on your own expedition. So how could someone listening to this if they're thinking, I really like these ideas, but how do I figure out what mine are? Where do they start?

Julia Middleton [00:21:36]:
Well, you go to the website womenemerging.org pretty easy. And you download the book and you can read it. Okay. It's not heavy, it's light, it's full of stories. And just by reading it and by doing some of the sort of thought pieces in it, you'll go on a sort of mini expedition on your own. Then if you want more, then you go to the WE Hub and you start really engaging and saying, what are these other women doing? And. And that's a mini expedition of its own. I do a podcast like you do, love doing it like you do.

Julia Middleton [00:22:13]:
There's always new knowledge coming through. And then maybe you say, no, this time I'm going to do it properly for myself. And we have a sort of solo expedition that you can do do online. It's absolutely free, you can download it really easy. But if you want to do a group expedition, then put together a group of 24 women and either you'll run it and we'll give you the materials to do it, or we'll run it and we'll run it for you. It'll be a bit of a cost, but absolutely nothing compared to what you might think it is. So nothing, nothing crazy, nothing that's ever going to stop you doing it. Because the objective is to achieve those that dream of five years on, not to do anything else.

Julia Middleton [00:23:00]:
I'm a volunteer, but we have a lot of fantastic staff, mostly based in India and across the continent of Africa. And they are brilliant at helping people run expeditions.

Carla Miller [00:23:12]:
And it sounds like it could be something that a women's network could do, for example, because you've got this gathering of women, and it's a real chance for them to celebrate each other's different essences and help to create that sense of safety. Because my next question to you is, if someone really does work out that alignment, how do they find the courage to shift from trying to survive in a world not designed for them to, I'm going to do it my way. So I love the concept and idea, but I always find with coaching clients, it's a massive leap for them. So where do they start with that, do you think?

Julia Middleton [00:23:54]:
I think that on expeditions you begin to realize that it works and that the alternative doesn't work. And you also begin to realize that if you carry on adopting other people's ways, there's a limit to how long you can carry on doing it. So I think it is that sort of deep confidence of, okay, this way works, we're going to do it more now, in some cases doing it more, make sure that you do it in your own team. You can't change the whole organization overnight. Do it in your own team. But in some cases, you can quietly, you know, encourage and persuade other people. I think that the world is going in this direction. I mean, I would argue, for example, that the amount of trauma that we see in the world today is going to require a much more human, and I would argue, sophisticated way of leading anyhow.

Julia Middleton [00:24:57]:
So I think it's to remind yourself that the direction of travel is this. Now we've got a few people running the world who are clearly not with us. And I think that the vast proportion of people are good human beings who want to lead well and they'll get there. And women just have to do it with that confidence and not be sort of put off, you know, when that person and that panel says to me, you know, what's the emotional approach? I might have 20 years ago been embarrassed about bringing emotions to my leading. Now I just say, poor you. Can't you do it? Can I help you?

Carla Miller [00:25:38]:
Absolutely. And I think you're right. There are. It's not like anyone's out there completely faking it right now. Like they are already doing some things in the way that is innate to them. And it's. It's trusting yourself, isn't it? And sometimes that's baby steps, and sometimes it's, do you know what on this thing, I'm going to trust my instinct, my experience, my knowledge on this, and I'm going to fight for that rather than just accepting something else.

Julia Middleton [00:26:06]:
As I was talking to a woman who'd been on an expedition recently, she said to me, julia, half of the things I discovered I knew already and I'm just doing them with more confidence. And the other half of them are really quite interesting and I'd like to adapt, you know, try them. And she said, you know, what's the biggest secret to leading? And I think apart from having a fundamental interest in other human beings, I think a smile. I think that's the most powerful tool we have for leading. You smile, people smile back, you smile half a smile, then they know that you understand their pain. There are all kinds of things that are simple that we can just do more of.

Carla Miller [00:26:48]:
In the book you intend and in your expedition, you intentionally didn't gather a group of women just like you. You went out and you worked internationally, people from very different experiences. What were the benefits of doing that, of really embracing that diversity of experience and thought and opinion?

Julia Middleton [00:27:11]:
You get a mirror up and people and people said, you know, I, like many people in the northern hemisphere, talk too much and talk too fast. And occasionally, you know, some of the women from the southern hemisphere would say, julie, if you could just shut up for a minute, we might get a look in. But the diversity was cultural in terms of geography, but it was also hugely in terms of generations. You know, there were a number of young women on that first expedition who, I don't know, maybe it took two or three months before they began to realize that everybody was there to learn equally. We never at the beginning of that expedition asked everybody to introduce themselves. Okay, I think that's a killer because every time everybody else introduces themselves, I always think, why am I a member of this group? They're all fantastically clever and brilliant and wonderful and experienced and I'm just pathetic. But we never asked them to introduce each other. So therefore the 24 year olds didn't have to do their resume, which would be quite short compared to the 60 year olds where it was quite long.

Julia Middleton [00:28:29]:
They just got in there and started talking about leading and both began to learn from each other. So we had, you know, we had diversity of age, which was so and so inspiring. You know, young people were reminding older people what it was like to be young. So it was, it was, it was a fantastic. I remember a young Polish violinist who was on that first expedition saying, you know, I've spent the last 10 years trying to impress men. And now I realize I really only care if women are impressed by me. Maybe that's not a leadership outcome, but it was a beautiful moment when she said it, and we all smiled quietly. There was geographical diversity, There was beliefs diversity, There was generational diversity, There was sector diversity.

Julia Middleton [00:29:23]:
You know, and it was the toughest thing I've ever led. You know, half the group were women who wanted a KPI for every call and wanted to know exactly what milestone we would achieve by call 5. And half of the women said, let's just go with the flow and see where we get to. And I was sort of trying to weave these two groups of women together and. And that was really difficult. And it was particularly difficult because most of them knew that I belonged with the dreamers. But it's when you are in a group like that that you really begin to pick your own blind spots and see things that you hadn't seen in others and in yourself.

Carla Miller [00:30:13]:
I was going to ask actually when. When you were doing that, when you were leading a group, talking about leadership, I think I'd be pretty self conscious about how I was leading. What. Which of your. What elements did you draw on to be able to. To lead that group in a way that would work for this expedition?

Julia Middleton [00:30:33]:
Well, if I reframed your question slightly to answer something that, you know, I knew that motherness was deep in my essence, and I've always known that and have always tried to use examples of motherness whenever I do any leadership talk. So I knew it was in there. But I almost, on that expedition, discovered bits of essence in me that I didn't know were there. You know, one of the ones I didn't mention at the beginning is ancestors. And we had one or two members of the expedition who came from indigenous tribes who talked about how their ancestors had influenced how they lead, their relationships with ancestors. Now, I'd never really thought about that. I never thought about my grandmothers. And I began to see how that relationship has influenced how I lead the other one that was closer to me, but was interesting because some of the women had nature in their essence, but most of them thought it was ridiculous.

Julia Middleton [00:31:43]:
And slowly they all began to realize that the connection and the cycles of nature were part of how they lead. And there were some amazing conversations with some people who had disabilities talking about relationship with body and how I spent my life ignoring my relationship with my body. And for me, that expedition began to sort of unpick something that I had largely ignored. So. So there were Some that I brought naturally, but some that I discovered on that expedition which, on which I treasure.

Carla Miller [00:32:25]:
And what's, what's your next expedition, Julia?

Julia Middleton [00:32:29]:
Well, as you perhaps know, there is a huge transfer of philanthropic money in the world out of men's hands into women's hands. That's going to happen in the next 10 years. And a group of women philanthropists said to me, can we, will you, Julia, lead an expedition of women philanthropists on how to lead? And I said I'm not interested in how to make money and how to spend money. And they said julia, we're not interested in that. Lots of other people are telling us how to do that. What we're interested in is how do you use the disproportionate amount of power that you have through your money to lead effectively. And so we're slowly. I can see, of the 24, I can see 16 already.

Julia Middleton [00:33:15]:
And they're all over the world, women who are philanthropists talking about how you, how you lead if you're a very wealthy philanthropist or a not so wealthy philanthropist, but you are a philanthropist because you know, philanthropists become very elitist. It's about how many millions and billions you hand out will actually some of us hand out much less than that, but we're still philanthropists. So it's a real mixture of philanthropists on how to lead if you're a philanthropist. I am totally inspired by that one. And the other one that I'm very interested in is this consortium of universities across the world and they're all putting two or three of the young women students on an expedition. We did one for university students about a year ago. I led it because I can't resist hearing the voices of 22 year olds. But now there's so many universities involved in it and I'm having to fight to continue to be the person who leads that one because it's fascinating listening to the generational differences.

Julia Middleton [00:34:23]:
So leading that expedition of university students. Delicious.

Carla Miller [00:34:28]:
Amazing. You are an inspiration. And it seems like you get really inspired by other people and their energy as well. I think the intergenerational thing is really fascinating and an expedition in itself, isn't it? Even within the workplace there's so much complexity and so much otherness going on othering people. And actually I think if we can all use that more model to, to really appreciate what other people bring and their different experiences, I think it creates a much richer environment for everyone to.

Julia Middleton [00:35:02]:
Succeed and, and what they're up against. You know, there's a group I can see it, it's rumbling. There's a group of professional women in companies and in organizations where the culture doesn't really work for them, and they're clearly brewing in expedition. And this amazing woman called Bin Wolf who's just stood down, she was deputy head of talent at EY Global. She's just stepped down from that role and she said she's going to lead this expedition, which makes me want to be a member of it, of course, because she's amazing. But she's going to use the four E's with 24 women in the large, small corporate world and organizational world to say, how do you lead if. If the truth is that the winds are going in the different direction, how do you weave your way through this new world? So I, it's, you know, it's the ones that I'm leading I'm inspired by, but I'm totally inspired by the ones that other women are leading.

Carla Miller [00:36:06]:
I'm really energized by this idea and I think until I spoke to you, I didn't fully, really grasp bit like I, I've read it, but I did. I couldn't picture it, but now I'm like, actually, I really love this expedition as a format of exploration and learning and connection. Thank you so much for coming and sharing this experience with us, for creating women emerging and for all the things you're going to create next. Really, really appreciate it. What's the name of your podcast so that people can tune into that and then we will put all the other links in the show Notes.

Julia Middleton [00:36:40]:
Women merging.

Carla Miller [00:36:41]:
There we go. Lovely and simple.

Julia Middleton [00:36:44]:
Carly, you're a class act. I enjoy your podcast, too. Thank you very, very much.

Carla Miller [00:36:49]:
Thanks, Jul.