Carla Miller 00:00
Welcome to the influence and impact podcast for female leaders. My name is Carla Miller, and I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self doubt, become brilliant at influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. We'll be talking about all the different topics that affect you, as a woman leading today. Think of it as personal development meets professional development. And I want to become the leadership BFF, you didn't know you were missing until now.

In this episode of the influence and impact podcast, we're talking about how to be an inclusive leader, and specifically in the context of race. So this is one of the podcast episodes where we tackle issues that aren't always openly addressed. In the workplace. We have had some and we've got some coming up on topics including neuro diversity, fertility and fertility treatment, menopause. And race is another one of those topics. And I'm going to be completely transparent with you. It's hard to know what language to use when we're talking about race, because, understandably, nobody wants to be labelled. And we are not talking about a generic group of people. So within this podcast episode, we have been using the term women of colour, because that's the term that our podcast guest prefers to use. But we do talk about that, that topic within the podcast. I also talk about how I'm very much a learning leader. When it comes to this topic, I want to be inclusive, I want to support others to be inclusive, I have a lot to learn still. So neither I nor my lovely guest has seen a Fareed are claiming to be experts in this field. But what we were both willing to do is to have the uncomfortable conversation in the hope that it will be helpful for others and inspire others to have uncomfortable conversations within their organisations about race and gender, and all the other areas where we see systemic discrimination. So a little bit about our guest Hasina. She is the co founder of the women of colour global network, which is a new membership network connecting professional women of colour, supporting them with career progression and advancement. And it sounds like the most fantastic idea. It's just starting up now. I have pledged my support and will be joining as an ally when it is properly up and running.
But you'll hear all about that within the episode but a little bit about her soon as background. She's a consultant working in the arts, charity, nonprofit and creative sectors and she's also an executive coach. She's the founder of meshwork, which is a consultancy providing organisational development, training, facilitating fundraising, coaching and management expertise for charities, nonprofits and the creative sector. Her background includes nearly two decades in fundraising leadership roles, including the British Museum, Royal Academy of Arts Young Vic Theatre, the Royal Institution, and The Guardian news and media. She's a second generation British Bangladeshi woman of colour, living in Hackney with her husband. She's passionate about inclusive leadership and building purposeful and impact driven organisations, and in the promotion of equality and equity of women of colour in the workplace and in wider society. And I am completely supportive and aligned to those goals, and it was an absolute pleasure having her on the podcast.

Before we jump into today's episode, I also wanted to share the exciting news that the doors to influence and impact open today. So we only open the doors a few times a year, they are not going to open again until the autumn. And this is your chance to join my 12 month group coaching programme for women in leadership roles. It's an amazing community. I think that's actually the most powerful thing about it. I teach you all about how to have more influence how to make more impact, how to turn down the volume on that inner critic. And all of that is incredibly useful and powerful in itself. But it's actually when you combine that with Joining this community of inspiring ambitious values led women who are there to support each other to encourage each other to learn with and from each other. And the best thing about it is absolutely the women in the group and I would love for you to be one of those women, I would love for you to join us within influence and impact. So if you would like to find out more about that, you will find a link in the show notes, which tells you more about the programme. But the best way to do it is to come along to the free masterclass that I am offering, which is available only until the ninth of May. It's called How to be an influential leader without letting self doubt hold you back. And on the masterclass, you're going to learn the three big influencing mistakes that could be holding you back from having the authority want. I'm going to share three simple but powerful practices that you can do each day to remedy these mistakes, and build your confidence and authority. And are going to talk you through my signature three step influence and impact framework that will teach you how you can be an influential leader without self doubt holding you back. That's all going to happen within 45 minutes. Only the last five to 10 minutes is telling you about influence and impact. So there's huge amounts of value in there. And anyone who comes along and stays to the end gets a free gift from me, which is the 10 powerful phrases you can use for influencing anyone. So the notes, the link is in the show notes to go and register for that. I would love to see you on the master class. And I'm hoping that 3000 Women are going to watch the master class. This time. I'm all about reaching as many women as possible. And I know that even just attending the masterclass has a transformational effect for people I get all these emails afterwards, telling me about how much it's helped them and how they're already putting it into practice. So I would love to see you on that.

So I'm delighted to welcome Haseena who is one of the cofounders of the women of colour global network, to chat about the network and this new idea and where it's gonna go from here. So welcome.

Haseena Farid 07:28
Oh, thank you. Thanks so much for having me, Carla. Really appreciate it.
Carla Miller 07:32
No worries. And how's your day going?

Haseena Farid 07:34
Yeah, it's full and busy. But yeah, good. Thank you. No, I'm glad that we've it's been great this journey that we're going on with women of colour, but it's just means that I'm busier than ever, which is great.

Carla Miller 07:49
I can imagine. So I thought what would be helpful is to start by talking a little bit about your background, and how you came to get involved in this new initiative. I think that'd be really interesting for people to hear.

Haseena Farid 08:02
So I'm busy and buried. So I've had backgrounds really in the arts and cultural sector. So I've been working in those sectors for about 20 years now. Really, what what I am a consultant now. So what I do is I work with arts and charities and creative sectors to really help them with their fundraising. And particularly actually around, I'm moving more into organisational development. So helping them very much with their looking at strategy, looking at their leadership programmes, seeing if there's any support I can give there as a trainer and facilitator. So yeah, so that's kind of where I started where I am now. But I think, you know, where I really began was in the museum sector, which was really interesting place to start my career. Fascinating people. But it was kind of, whilst it was an incredible place to be, it could, it felt at times quite an isolating place for myself, at the start of my career, just because I happen to be the only very few ethnic minorities, I think, in the kind of fundraising sector, I kind of felt quite isolating at that, at that stage. Things have changed a little bit and moved on now. But I think yeah, it was that kind of experience, really, that's probably got me to where I am now. And being very aware of kind of my own experiences a woman of colour within the arts and cultural sector that has got me to where I am working with Milan, business partner on the women of colour network.

Carla Miller 09:36
Tell us more about the network. What is it? How does it work? What's your vision for it?

Haseena Farid 09:40
It's amazing actually how this has all come about. So I was working at The Guardian news media and that's where I met my business partner, Milan. She she's a senior woman of colour working there in the publishing side. And when I got there, we just clicked actually we were just it was really interesting. She's from French Caribbean descent, and I'm British, Bangladeshi. And when we met each other, there was just so much talk about, you know, looking back at our kind of families, our backgrounds, how we got to where we got to in our careers. And, you know, that was really refreshing for me, because she was the first woman of colour in a senior position that I had ever met in my career. So, you know, we talk a lot about that, you know, our sort of dinners and things like that. And, and one of the big things we were talking about is, you know, how, as women of colour have, we sort of navigated if you like, our path career paths to get to where we were, which were, you know, in senior positions.
So yeah, it was really helpful, you know, when being able to talk to somebody at that stage of my career as a kind of a real bonding experience. So I felt really lucky to have met Merlin when I did, because, you know, when you're in an organisation, where there there aren't people, you know, women of colour, or people that look like you, it can be really isolating, as I was saying before. And so I felt it was really helpful when I met her because she could support me and advocate for me, within the Guardian, and, you know, now more broadly, in my, my wider career, so yeah, so I think that's kind of where it started, you know, because there's a, there's a lot of, and you probably be aware, as well, and I can talk a bit more about it, but, you know, women of colour face particular struggles, within the workplace. And, and if you, if you're a woman of colour, and you don't have a network, or you're not meeting somebody who looks a bit like you, you don't have that visibility within your organisation, that can be really, really challenging for you to actually move, move up within that organisation. And, you know, there's a lot of data out there to support that, you know, that women of colour really going through, they have a real sort of double disadvantage, you know, that they're facing the gender biases, but as well as that there's a huge race perspective to what to what their, their experiences, you know, how their experiences are playing out.

So that's really where where I was born, you know, we we thought, right, we have to do something, we felt compelled to kind of create a space where these women felt like they could belong. And they could support each other, and help each other to advance and not just rely on sort of, you know, that happening internally. And I think, for us, it was really important as well to build a network that could help those corporations and those organisations that are, you know, really progressive, and thinking about race, and all these kind of things, to really help them start to kind of address some of those structural biases as well. So yeah, so that's kind of where it started, and my own sort of experience within the land and my sort of lived experience. But I think another turning point was, and I've got to mention it, it was BLM, you know, but the Black Lives Matter. And then also, everything that we're seeing, in terms of with COVID, the devastating kind of impact that's having on ethnic minorities, that was when I think I had a real awakening. It shocked me to my core. And I think as a as my own identity as a woman of colour there, I was really sort of, sort of think, then what could I do, you know, as a woman of colour, to kind of give others that support, but also, you know, really try to call some of this, this out within organisations.

Carla Miller 13:32
And I think it'd be really interesting to understand more about that double discrimination effects, because I think the more we can shine a light on things, the more people will be aware, because I think sometimes there's obviously intentional bias, but there's a lot of unconscious bias. Yeah, isn't that and I certainly I'm sure I have layers, myself, and I would like to know what they are, so that I can make sure that I am not acting in a biassed way. So when I saw that you have created this on LinkedIn, I just I love the idea and the energy behind it. And also you welcome members who are not women of colour as well, don't you?

Haseena Farid 14:12
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we see this as a really kind of open network. You know, it's it's not closed, it's very much yes, it's about women of colour. But actually, we have a huge number of allies who are working with us.
And that's such a critical part of this, because this can't be it's a focus network. Yes. But it's also a network where we have to have dialogue and we have to bring people together, because we can't make these changes. We can't bring in you know, we can't have an equitable society, if we, if not everybody's involved in that discussion and pushing forward with change. So absolutely. That's a critical part of it. But it's interesting what you're saying. So what does that double disadvantage look like? You know, well, it So you're absolutely right, there's a lot of it is unconscious, there's a lot of unconscious bias. We know that within organisations, I think for women of colour, what they're facing is, you know, that there are a lot of kind of microaggressions and what I mean by microaggressions are these are things like, you know, insensitive comments that are being made, mainly unconscious, that make these women of colour feel like an outsider.

So, you know, it could be anything from you know, I've heard comments about, you know, black colleagues hair, you know, her natural hair, and that little sort of comments about, oh, you know, oh, that looks really you know, that what is that on your head, you know, when people have had got cornrows and things like that, but these kind of insensitive things, people probably not realising it. But saying these things can have a really detrimental effects on how that person feels. I mean, I remember being you know, in, obviously, in the arts, you know, as I was mentioning, being, you know, the only only person of colour actually let alone woman of colour, attending donor dinners, you know, with with philanthropists or drinks, receptions, and things like that. And I remember, you know, being in many conversations where people would mentioned that I look exotic, or, you know, or, you know, maybe even getting my name wrong, you know, when there happened to be one of those few occasions where there was another woman of colour in the room, and getting my name wrong, you know, calling me her name. So these are kind of like small, little kind of unconscious, things that happen. But these are felt daily, by some women of colour. And what it how it makes them feel is that they then feel kind of afraid, if you like to speak up, and to say to somebody, or call it out and say, you know, please don't say that to me, because, because I think what they're very worried about is that they're, they will be sort of racially stereotyped as being you know, the angry black woman or the Angry Asian woman, etc.

So, and that there'll be accused, you know, of being overly sensitive and taking things the wrong way. So these kind of like, you know, microaggressions, which sounds very, maybe, you know, ridiculous in some ways, aren't you, they are felt deeply. And so, if you're a woman of colour, experiencing about those kinds of things daily, you know, within an organisation that's going to affect you emotionally, that's going to, you know, really challenge you and your confidence will hit rock bottom. So I think that's what I'm talking about, when I'm talking about this double disadvantage, they have all of these things going on around you the challenges around race, which are unique to them. Plus, they have all this kind of the gender biases going on, that every woman has probably faced. And I think that that can be emotionally taxing for these women of colour. So I hope that sort of gives you a bit of an understanding.

Carla Miller 18:06
A couple of months ago, I was doing calls with people who, with women, female leaders had to find out what their challenges were. And I was speaking to one woman who's a woman of colour, and she basically found she was getting called out for being aggressive when seeing exactly the same behaviour as other women who are likely she was like, Well, do I, you know, what do I do?
How do I assert myself? I have to kind of temper how I do things. It was really interesting. I'm really heartbreaking to hear actually.

Haseena Farid 18:45
Yeah. And unfortunately, it's just that's really common. And I think you're right, it's that kind of, how do I, well, a, why do I have to even think about this? You know, why is it something that I have to think about on a daily basis? And somebody's a white man and a white woman doesn't really, but then secondly, once I, you know, it is something that I have to think about, how do I now come across as getting my point across in a way that's not going to be taken, you know, flippantly or disregarded. It's really challenging. So I yeah, I feel for that, for that feel for a lot of women of colour in this situation.

Carla Miller 19:26
Yeah. Because there's already I mean, there's already evidence that says that women can't behave in the same way as men and be taken. Yeah, seriously, we can't be as direct. Exactly. We can't be we we have to soften when we're trying to make a really harsh point. Those of us that are naturally direct, and I count myself in there, have to soften it in order to keep people on board. Absolutely. So challenging. So yeah, I think women have to navigate that generally and then to have that added level of assumption and judgement about you must be incredibly challenging.

Haseena Farid 20:04
Oh, it's I think it's, it's, I absolutely believe that it, it's detrimental to these women's careers, because what's happening is, you know, they're going through this, they're suffering in silence, perhaps in workplaces, they don't know who to turn to, to have these open conversations. And then what's naturally happening is that they either leave, you know, they can't take it so much, you know, within the workplace, or they end up leaving the organisations or, you know, they are sort of stuck, I guess, in a position where they're not able to progress and, and that can be deeply upsetting because they're talented, you know, these women are highly skilled, they have a lot to give. And it's, it's deeply distressing, because they're not being given the support, or even actually, the acknowledgement, that they are equal to everybody else. And have, you know, and so, so I think and statistics back all of this up, you know, we know that women of colour, it's 1% of power positions in this country, are held by women of colour, right?

That's a That's a staggering statistic, really. And that hasn't changed much. And then we also know that, you know, women, you know, they're absent from sort of what, just by that statistic, we know that they're absent from decision making positions, right. So I think, when we look, take all of that into account, yeah, it's it's incredibly detrimental to these women's careers. And you have to ask, we know that there's obviously there's systemic racial, sort of there are racial biases happening, you know, just as there are gender biases. So you have to ask the question, Why are these things not being called out? And we have to do something about it, because you're losing a great pipeline of talent there. And that's not great for any organisation. Right? So. So I think, yeah, so it's a bigger, it's a big issue, but I think fundamentally detrimental to these careers, and to organisations who are losing brilliant talent pipelines.

Carla Miller 22:18
Absolutely. And I think later, we can talk about how as leaders, we can create the psychological safety force, anyone to call out when they are feeling a micro aggression, or when they're feeling judged, and when there is discrimination clearly happening. So I think we can absolutely talk about that. I wanted to quickly, not quickly touch on I wanted to raise the issue of language, we were chatting beforehand, there's an elephant in the room when it comes to this conversation. And one of them is language. And I'm certainly seeing a lot on LinkedIn at the moment, pushback against labelling any group you you have gone for the label for your particular network of women of colour, but what are your thoughts on language? And how we can helpfully use language to talk about these women?

Haseena Farid 23:11
Yeah, it's a huge topic. And yeah, we could probably spend a whole session talking about it, but I think you're you're right there is there are sensitivities with language. And I think, with language with terms with labels like BAME, etc, you're always going to risk that you're not representative of everybody. And I think that's really the issue. And also, these terms, you know, they're not really well understood, and they've sort of just appeared. So if you don't really identify whether they're not very useful, so I think we we certainly, you know, we've come for women of colour, because it is a term that is used, it's very prevalent in America in the US. It's a well known term. But I also know that even with that term, you know, black women out there don't particularly identify some black women with that term, because they feel that their experience is unique, which it is, and black women go through some fundamental challenges, I would say, that are really unique to them. And I think so.

So there, yes, there lies the kind of issue, I guess where you've got to make sure that you have terms that are representative of everybody. I think the government now has scrapped as far as I understand the stool report that came out recommended scrapping the beam term because it's just not understood in research. And I think they think that caught you using ethnic minorities or, you know, is perhaps the better term here. Because it's just broader. It can encompass, you know, everybody I think so. So I think it's, it's you absolute right language is important. It's this is an ongoing discussion and a debate, I think you'll see so many changes to come. Actually, we haven't got it right. But I think the key to it is to have these open discussions about what does a inclusive culture looks like, you know, an inclusive society so that we can try to find language that is as inclusive as possible. So yeah, that's kind of yeah, that's my take on it. Really.

Carla Miller 25:29
Yeah. And I think it's interesting, because we're at this point at the moment where we want to be having more of these discussions. But everyone's uncomfortable from different angles, about the language that we use. And that's the elephant in the room. We were talking before, and I was quite open with you that I feel nervous about this podcast episode. Because I feel like I don't have the right language. I'm still educating myself. And I'm very conscious. And it's one of the reasons why I really wanted to chat to you, I'm very conscious that the feminist movement has not always been seen as a friend to women who are not white. And so it's I'm, as I'm creating a community, a very inclusive community of women. I want to make sure that is absolutely raising up everyone, particularly those who do have that double disadvantage. But yes, I just want to flag really open to anyone listening that I am bumbling. I'm very much a learning leader.

Haseena Farid 26:41
Yeah. But that's great. I think you're right, and it's good to be open about it, you know, because, you know, I'm certainly not, you know, I don't know everything, you know, I might have a lived experience, but my leg lift experience as a woman of colour is very different from many other, you know, people of colour out there, you know, I think that's the important thing to remember here. Every experience is going to be unique. And I think when it comes to, like, you know, feeling scared and nervous about talking about race, the one thing and you know, this better than a one colour, we're, we're both coaches, you know, the key to the key is listening. The key is to have, you know, open dialogue, creating a safe space, where you can listen to the other person's experience. And I think that's where we've got to start, and the language part of it, so okay, to Bumble, it's okay to get it wrong. Because we have to learn together, we have to find a common language when we talk about these things. And the only way to do that is to start by actually confronting the fact that we have to have these uncomfortable conversations sometimes around race. And I think, you know, there's a lot you talked about, you know, educating yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I'm educating myself, too. You know, there's a lot out there, there's so much been written about, you know, race and prejudice and all that kind of stuff. I think that it, that's a good place to start, you know, educating ourselves about the racial experiences people have been through. And I think we have to also confront our fears, you know, when we think about what does diversity and inclusion look like, within the workplace, and we have to make space safe spaces, even in within the workplaces as well, where we can have these uncomfortable, uncomfortable conversations that we've probably resisted for so long, you know? So yeah, so like, don't I think the message is, don't worry, it's okay. I think it's the thing to do is, don't not initiate a conversation, because you're petrified of getting it wrong, or using the wrong terms. We're having this discussion today, because you felt it was really important to your work, but also, just to have this conversation right, to just to get it on the table. And I think that's brilliant. I think that's the way forward. So yeah, so we can talk more about that. But you know, for me, diversity and inclusion, all this kind of stuff starts with creating the right space and a safe space to have that that type of conversation in the first place.

Carla Miller 29:24
And what does that safe space look like in a work environment? So, my, my audience here is women who are leaders, women from all different racial backgrounds. So how does any women as a leader create that space? For inclusivity and I'm talking about inclusivity across all sorts of different areas. So obviously, there's gender this race, disability comes up a lot as well. There's so many different ways we could be more inclusive, but how do we start to create a space where we can have that calm session.

Haseena Farid 30:00
Yeah, big question. I think it's, I think it starts with, first of all, a commitment, a commitment that, you know, as an organisation, as a company, whatever you are, you know, that you value diversity of thought, I think that's where it starts. Because if you don't value that, if we don't, you know, if you don't believe that every single person out there has a voice and, and should be fairly represented, that's always going to be really challenging, right? So you have to come, you've got to start there. And then then you start building your organisations and the culture of your organisation to reflect that by thinking about what does that mean, you know, if we value diversity of thought, what does that look like within a team? What does that look like at leadership? What are the qualities that we would want to see? And then I think it's about the space part is really about communication and conversation and making sure that people feel that they are being listened to, you know, that you're being respectful of people's backgrounds, that you are compassionate in the way you talk with each other, that you share your kind of learnings.

So I think the safe space to me is about conversation. So creating a space where people feel that they can approach you that you can talk to each other, and that they can have those conversations about race, you know, that it's not this kind of war god, taboo thing, you know, that it's, it's just part of life, you know, it's how we as a society should be right. And so I think, yeah, to me, a safe space is, first of all, it's got to come from a commitment from the organisation, but then it's about how do you bring in that culture of conversation and openness? That's, that's to me where I think where it needs to start.

Carla Miller 32:11
Makes sense. And I think it's really interesting. I saw a really useful diagram on LinkedIn, which was aimed at HR managers, which basically said, If someone comes to you and tells you that they have experience racism, how do you deal with it? How do you, and one of the first things was, don't question them on it. Believe them.

Haseena Farid 32:37
100%? Yes, absolutely. You know, that's, that's where it starts. Right? Trust.

Carla Miller 32:44
Yeah. And that was really interesting, because I haven't, because obviously, that's your natural. That's your natural instinct to do that. Anyway. But I coach a lot of leaders. Yeah. And often, and I coach a lot on influencing. And my theory is that influencing starts from within and being aware what you bring to the relationship as well. And so often, when I'm talking about how someone can influence in a particular situation, the place I would go to is, how are they showing up, because I can't coach the other person, I can only coach them. And so that was a real check for me that obviously, I wouldn't do that if someone to come to me to talk about racism, but where that dynamic is in play, I might need to adjust my approach, for example, to to understand that there are very real barriers that women of colour face that I in some of my other clients don't face, for example. So even when it comes to coaching, because that's a whole field in itself, isn't it? Like, not only are women of colour not represented well, in terms of leadership, but also in the coaching world?

Haseena Farid 33:51
Oh, my goodness, absolutely. And I'm really seeing that, you know, coming in as a relatively new coach, but gosh, you know, trying to find other women of colour, you know, that I can connect with has been a bit of a minefield, if I'm completely honest with you. But going back to your point, I think, yeah, that's, it's this is kind of why we've set the network up, right? Because to us, it is that first, the first bit is about understand if a woman of colour is coming to you, and is telling you that something is happening within a work situation, that it's so important to listen, you know, first and foremost, listen and trust what they're saying. From that, though, you can build that, you know, that sense that was talking about that sense of kind of belonging, allowing them to feel comfortable to open up more. And then it's from that that you can start to have those empowering conversations I think about, you know, what is it that you need, you know, what would help you to to advance your career, how, how can I help to make that happen, and I think within that is a piece around, get it building their confidence so that they find the tools themselves to be able to push forward, change, and also to push forward and try and have those kinds of conversations themselves. Now that's a, it'll be, that's a long way road to go. But it's, but it's a start, you know, you start by listening, and then you work through that, to empower them. And, and the way to our networks going to do that is by women of colour lifting each other up. Because that's where we've seen, actually, the greatest kind of rewards is, and we've seen it in our own team, we've got a team of six women, and the women of colour within that team, you know, already unconditionally supporting each other.

And you can just see how, you know, women are already flying within our team, you know, we've got couples who've got their own businesses, they, you know, launch those businesses during the pandemic, it was a really, you know, stressful time. And I think through the support that we've given each other, those women and our doing so well, you know, they've sort of built their confidence up. And one of the things I hear time and time again, is them saying, Well, I don't feel I could have done that. If I, if I, if I couldn't have shared it with you guys. And you've given us the kind of, I guess, the not just it's not just support, but the actual, it's the empowerment, it's that that's driven them. So I think I think there's something very strong there about yes, you have to start by listening, you have to start by creating that safe space. And from that, I think you get, you can then encourage those women to to make some changes themselves, right to get themselves into a better place.

Carla Miller 36:49
I love those questions. And I wonder if there's a question, when you get into that conversation, there's a question to be asked about how not only how can I help, but am I making this situation?

Haseena Farid 37:03
Absolutely. Yes.

Carla Miller 37:06
I'm really open to hearing that feedback.

Haseena Farid 37:10
Fundamental. Absolutely, I think so. And that, you know, that's another great point, you know, feedback, my goodness, what a huge topic in and of itself, right? Psychological, the whole psychological thing about giving and receiving feedback? Well, can you imagine what it's like for women of colour, you know, who are possibly already, you know, daunted by the prospect of having these types of conversations, not really knowing if they're going to be taken seriously. And then maybe going through these, you know, experiences within work and coming to the point where they, you know, they want to give feedback to their managers or whoever, but they don't know how to do that.
So there's something there around also asking, you know, have, like, you've just said, you know, within the coaching conversation, it's kind of asking them, you know, what does, what does that feedback look like for you? You know, and and also, what can I do? You know, what is it about the way I'm delivering feedback to you, that's making sense to you that isn't, you know, what, what else can I do? I think we have to have these open conversations.

Carla Miller 38:11
Yeah, one of the questions I always encourage people to, to ask when they're doing a one to one with their team members is, am I doing anything? Or how am I making your job harder? Yeah, you can also on a bigger context. Context, can't you? Because you know, someone's answer may well be linked to their experiences a woman of colour, it may well be linked to other things as well. So yeah, I think that I always think that you have to have a certain amount of self awareness so that you don't end up being defensive or justifying. Yeah, because you're asking for that feedback. You need to create that psychological safety, but I think it's so useful. We all have blind spots and know about them even working with a coach doesn't really help with the blind spots, because a coach can't see you in action. Yeah, only ever hear your viewpoint and things and you know, as a coach, you know, you can you can listen and go, I think there's another angle to this, or that. However, that's not the same as as seeing it. So being open to the fact that we as leaders do have blind spots, so many different blind spot force, we need different things. Yeah. Asking the individuals who work for you what those are.

Haseena Farid 39:31
Massively. Yeah. Because, you know, it's, it's the growth mindset, isn't it? We have to sort of think about, I certainly trying to do this more and more now is, you know, I like learning, you know, and I know that I'm not the finished article, I never will be, but I want to understand how I can be better in my leadership how I can. And also, you know, the more you ask those questions, the better is because you're You know, I, again, I don't think you can create a truly inclusive culture or society if you're not asking these questions all the time, because we have to learn to kind of improve. And with the GCR, I mean, there's got to be a constant sort of, I guess loop of just improvement, because otherwise we'll never be able to truly understand others, you know, and so I think is really, really important to keep asking those questions. And that's kind of one of the things, you know, again, we're bringing it back to the network. But for us, that's a critical piece, you know, of course, we're about women of colour. But as I mentioned, for us, it's also about working with organisations and companies, to help them find the right language, help them ask the right questions, help them start to really kind of get into the getting depth really, when they're thinking about what to the experiences of our staff look like, you know, and the lived experiences. So, so that's just as important, you know, for us to be working with those types of companies to help them to answer some of that and give them the support to do that. So yeah.

Carla Miller 41:17
Brilliant. And then, in terms of how the network's actually going to work on a day to day basis, what does that look like?

Haseena Farid 41:27
Yeah, so we launched, or we soft launch, I should say, on International Women's Day, which was brilliant. But really, the, the aim of that was just to raise awareness of the actual mission really, and and what we're trying to do and see if we could, you know, get people interested. And it was brilliant since then, you know, we've had, I think, nearly I don't know, over 300 subscribers, straightaway, which is brilliant. And what we're wanting to do is keep those people informed until we launch sort of later in the year officially. And really, what we're doing at the moment, to get prepared for that launch is there's a couple of steps, we would love to get to a point where we have a very strong membership platform for women of colour, where they come and they receive, you know, coaching, mentoring, they have events where they can, you know, share their experiences, etc. But actually, I think what we've realised is to be able to do that really well, we've got to spend some time understanding these who these women of colour really are and getting a good sense of what their lived experiences are, because we want to have a membership that obviously reflects what they, they they need. But also, it might not be coaching, or mentoring, perhaps that they do need, you know, it might be something completely different. So we want to do a bit of research initially working hopefully, with the university that we're speaking to at the moment, but looking particularly at that sort of mid management level, where we there is some data to support that, you know, what's happening at that stage is that there are women of colour who are kind of over indexing on lots of training, and they're taking all the kind of training courses etc.

But what's still happening is that they're not being promoted. And they're, they're either leaving the organisation setting up their own businesses or, you know, moving on, I think, so there's a piece there that we'd like to do, where we'd like to work with companies and organisations to really understand, well, okay, the racial biases coming into this, but what is it about the practices within those organisations, that's, you know, kind of making that really happen if you like. And so for us, we want to do that piece of research, and then use the lived experiences and the research to inform our wider membership. So that's where we're at at the moment. And then, as part of the network, you know, I we truly believe mentoring is one of the key pieces to this. It's just how we do that mentoring piece is going to be important. So one of the things that we're passionate about is the idea of reverse mentoring. So getting pairing up women of colour, you know, maybe their early stage career, or even, you know, mid management, as I've said with senior exec so with executives so that they can talk about their experiences and what it's really like. And so that there's a dialogue and there's a kind of education piece going on internally within organisations, to get them to really, you know, understand that before they can actually put in Have some key things in place for these women. So, so yeah, so there's a, there's a lot going on there that we want to start with. But we do see it as this global network, we see it as something where there are no barriers to this, you know, it is happening. It's widespread globally. We hear about a lot of this in America, obviously, because there is just some deeply rooted systemic problems there. But you know, but we in the UK, also are going through these issues, and they're not perhaps spoken about as widely. And so again, you know, that's part of the network is about raising awareness of these issues as well. So So yeah, there's a there's a lot to do, I would say, before we launch, but right now, I think we can still keep our community if you like, engaged, because there's a lot to talk about. And there's a lot to kind of, raise awareness of so that's kind of our plan at the moment.

Carla Miller 46:04
Sounds incredible. It's gonna be so practical on so many different levels.

Haseena Farid 46:08
Yeah, I hope so. And I think, you know, the key to it is that we've got women of colour, who are going to be delivering a lot of this work as well. So you know, it is what it is a network that's devised by women of colour, right for women of colour. And we also appreciate that we don't have all the answers. So I think it is, it's really important to do that piece properly and take our time to really understand what's needed. I'm sure you've seen, you can easily put mentoring programmes together and do these kinds of things. But they can often feel tokenistic if there's no sort of long term impact. So we really want to make sure that that there is that long term peace in what we're trying to do achieve.

Carla Miller 46:56
Absolutely, I was talking to one of my previous guests, Fiona Buckland, and she was saying she does lots of women's leadership programmes in house and she started saying to the organisation, unless you're going to make the organisational changes needed, I'm not going to do this, because I'm just setting these women up for failure. I'm telling them that they're empowered when they're not actually empowered within this environment. So it's really interesting, I just recorded a podcast myself on the ways we give our power away. And I had to caveat it in the podcast and on the show notes with this is working on the assumption you are in a healthy working environment. And you're not experiencing systemic discrimination of some kind or bullying or toxic workplaces. Because I would hate for someone to listen to that and start blaming themselves, actually, it's, it's just ways in which we use language, for example, or ways in which we think about things where we can reclaim our power. However, you have to caveat it, because not everyone is working in it in a healthy way.

Haseena Farid 48:05
Yeah. Completely. There's you have to because, well, actually, what you're doing by caveats in here, hopefully, is shining, you know, holding a mirror up, and kind of saying, you might want to, you know, you've got a bit of a way to go. But I think I think that's important, though, because it's again, it's a bit like what we're trying to do, you know, I sometimes think, you know, we we will be facing or going into organisations that are just not there yet, you know, they, they sort of they, they probably only just got to the point where they've accepted that inclusivity is is a key part of everything that they're doing, you know, you've proactively being inclusive. So I think to then go in and do the bit about race, you know, we have that it's a bigger thing, you can't just sort of go in and expect that there will be some organisations that just you know, that get it. So I think I think, yeah, there's a lot of caveats thing for us, I think the key part is, you know, we really believe and maybe this is part of the way to also get organisations to understand this issue is that if we can't really achieve equality, right for women as a whole, if we don't achieve equality for women of colour, and the reason for that is because if we don't overcome racism, you know, how on earth can we achieve any sort of equality or gender equality, you know, in particularly, in this case, gender equality, so, they're inextricably linked to these things. So So organisations have to start to understand that all these things are inextricably linked. If we don't get one part, right, the rest of it ain't going to be right. So you know, so I think I really I really feel strongly that yeah, there is a journey that organisations need to go on, but they need to start looking at things in the round in the whole and not just as kind of, you know, small things on the side and and we'll tackle that one at a time. No, I don't think so I think now is the time to look at everything together. So yeah.

Carla Miller 50:13
Definitely, I think it starts. For me, I think it starts with awareness. Big because certainly BLM and everything that happened last year showed me how on aware I was of things. And there's difference between even just last year realising the difference between not being racist and being anti racist, like I would always have said, you know, I have always found racism, repellent. But that's not the same as being actively anti racist and being an ally. And I think so many of my listeners want to champion the members of their team and the women around them. Yeah, yeah. And we'll be thinking about what steps can I take to make sure I'm championing and bringing up everybody around me? And how can I be a role model to other women of colour, for example? So I think it's really interesting, isn't it as leaders, we're wanting to educate ourselves on this? Where Where would we go? What I know you love a good book, like I do.

Haseena Farid 51:23
Love a good book

Carla Miller 51:25
what resources or who should we follow?

Haseena Farid 51:28
Gosh, so well, so first of all, follow us as the women of colour global network, just because we do a lot of signposting, actually, to not just good books, but you know, people out there influencers and people talking on this subject. I mean, when you know, where I would start, there's so many good books out there. But actually, I think if you really want to understand the British experience, because you know, we can also talk about America and this and the other. But let's, let's think about where we are in the UK. There is a really good book, actually, by Afua Hirsch, she's a guardian writer, or journalist, and she, I think it's called Race identity on race, identity and belonging. And it's her whole thing, the book is all about, you know, what, what does it mean to be British? You know, and she talks about her own experience as a kind of a memoir, really, and it looks at Britain's relationship, you know, the British relationship with race. And I think that's a really interesting place to start, you know, to kind of understand, you know, how has Britain sort of there's a, there's a whole colonial Imperial past there, that Britain is sort of, kind of, didn't that deny a bit in denial about? And I think that's quite an interesting thing to look at, you know, why is that? And how does that feed into racism? You know, and I think I think it's a really good thing, because you the book makes you think, you know, you're not, you'll start to understand the we all have these kind of deeply rich backgrounds, you know, we're all, we're all a mix of something, you know, so this question of saying, oh, you know, where are you from? Or, you know, I don't think if you read that book, you'll start to understand that, that question is just a ridiculous, ridiculous question to ask anybody, you know, wherever you come from, because we're all we're all made up in many different ways. And I think so i think is a great book to kind of start to understand identity, and cultural significances. So that's a good one. And then there's another one. I mean, I don't know if you've heard of this one, Carla. But a lot of people talk about it, the why I'm no longer talking to white people about race. I think people have mixed reviews about that book. But I think it's quite a good one, actually, to start to really understand the kind of historical context of kind of racism and also present day racism in the UK. and EU, it talks a lot.
There's a lot about language there. You know, so I think is a really good one to kind of just get your teeth stuck into, you'll get a really good sense of that lived experience. And then there's the there's a really good I know, I love my books, but there's a really good book that I've read called Queenie. I can't remember the author's name candy, some somebody or other, but it's a really good book, because it's like, it's almost like a fiction, but it's not but it's, it's one woman's experience, really, of day to day life. You know, the microaggressions that she goes through like she's in a mixed relationship. You know, what, what does that look like? And how is she accepted by her partner's family? It's fascinating. It's so it's such a good read. It's good fun, and she's just hilarious. The woman who's writing it, she's got great personality. So there are a few books I would say like go out and get, but also I think, you know, fight you know, there are some really prevalent people out there talking about this issue, and I think it really depends on what resonates with you as well.

You know, there are a lot of people who can, it can feel like, and this is a thing, it's, it can feel content after a while, but you've got the same people coming out talking about Barack Obama talking about this or sort of, you know, you've got all these kinds of big figures. And that's great. But I actually think it's the ones who are the kind of not big figures, people who are on Twitter or Instagram who are women, or women of colour, or other people of colour, who have gone through their own personal experiences. And they're tweeting about these things now, and they've been very open about them. So if you just go on to, you know, Instagram and like, look at the trip, put in, you know, like race equality, or women's sporting women, or whatever it is, you'll start to see, you know, and you can follow these, these people, and I'm doing that at the moment on my Instagram, and there's some brilliant women out there, you know, doing some fantastic things. And, and I learn a lot from their own experiences. In fact, it makes me realise just how unique and you know, this intersectional thing that we talked about that that is clear, because, you know, my experience as a British Bangladeshi second generation is very different to another woman who might have been born and brought up in Nigeria and come over here when they're younger. And so you know, we've we have very different experiences, even though we're women of colour.

So I think it's going going online, basically, and going on to Instagram plays like that, and following some of these people, that's a really good place to start. But yeah, there's, there's so there's so many others as well, I think, friends, if you have friends out there, who you haven't had these conversations with, you know, have a conversation, open it up, you know, ask them be the person to, you know, to ask the question, what do you think, you know, we've just had a momentous occasion yesterday, for example, you know, with Derrick Chauvin now, found guilty, you know, of George Floyd's killing. That's a conversation starter. Right? We should all be talking about that. Really, you know, what, what does what does that mean, now? And I think there's a whole conversation around justice, you know, is, what does justice look like? Because this doesn't feel like justice. Really, this feels like a first step to getting towards justice in our society. So there's lots of questions, you know, that we can ask. And I think it's using these moments to have those conversations and not be afraid. So yeah, I don't know if that helps.

Carla Miller 57:48
Yeah, it's really helpful. And I think it's, it's each of us taking it on ourselves to educate ourselves rather than expecting other people to.

Haseena Farid 57:55
Yeah, definitely. I think so. Yeah. And I think that goes back to, doesn't it? Like if they were talking about leadership? You know, what, what can a leader do? Well, I think it's that start by educating yourself about racism, but also then share your vulnerability, right? That's what I would say. Like, don't, don't be scared to show say exactly the things we were saying earlier on, you know, saying, Oh, God, I don't know, I don't know if I've got the language. I don't know if I've got this all right. You know, but I'm reading, I'm educating myself, it's becoming a bit clearer. But what do you guys think? You know, I'd love to hear your experiences. I think that's, that's the way good leaders muddle the way, don't they? So I think, yeah, it's, it's educating yourself, but also, but also, you know, be the change maker, I always say that to people, you know, just do it be the change maker, you know, if you if you really believe in these things, and they're the core of, you know, core value to you, as a person, then go out there and challenge some of the internal practices that are going on, you know, ask the open questions, you know, what, what are, you know, and also find out about what your hiring practices look like, you know, how are promotions being, you know, who makes those decisions? How are they, they've been given. So, once you ask those questions, then you know, maybe you could be the person to help create that safe space, and the structure to have really effective conversations around how you can change some of those practices. So I think, yeah, be the change maker as well.

Carla Miller 59:35
Love that. That's gonna be a quote from you. Sure. And I feel like I literally just had a similar conversation with another guest on the podcast about the fact I think they should do a book, I think you should do a book to be I think there needs to be a book specifically about how leaders can be more than one I already be. I'm sure there'll be more inclusive. But But yeah, perspectives and different ways of looking at things. 100%.

Haseena Farid 1:00:08
Yeah.

Carla Miller 1:00:10
I mean, I think for me, what I have been trying to do is realising that I operate in a bit of an echo chamber, like, Yeah, well, past guests even. And I searched in my LinkedIn network, and like, all of the faces I'm seeing are white. And so I'm being really conscious that whenever I'm seeing other people commenting on someone I'm not connected to who's talking about these issues, or who is who is a person of colour? Generally, I'm like, Yeah, I need to I need to be following I need to be broadening. Brilliant. Yeah. My work and hearing different voices and opinions.

Haseena Farid 1:00:46
I think I think you're right. Yeah. And that's great. I think that's actually a really good piece of advice to everybody out there. Just Yeah, do that, you know, don't be unashamedly do that, you know, go and, you know, Spot who other people are following on LinkedIn, I do that all the time. And, and if I, if it resonates Lincoln with them, or send them a nice message, or follow people yet, definitely, just because it's really interesting, actually, that you say that because I remember, about a year ago, I kind of looked at LinkedIn, and my contacts on there. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this, this is a bit of a reflection on my career, I had hardly any people of colour in my network, right. And that was, again, that spoke to me, because I was like, God, no wonder, I've been sort of feeling that I don't know, maybe I've felt quite isolated at times. And so I made a conscious effort to go out there and link in with some brilliant people out there, you know, people of colour, do some incredible things. And then actually, I realised that lots of those people already networked with the people in my network. So it was possibly just, you know, I hadn't sort of done that piece of work. So yeah, I think do that unashamedly, is, it's a great thing to do. And you just don't know who you're going to have conversations with to you and where it's going to lead. That's the exciting bit.

Carla Miller 1:02:05
Exactly. And I think LinkedIn is such a nice, easy way to champion people as well by liking and sharing. And yes, I'm now seeing more and more posts, where women of colour are getting into top positions in particular sectors and industries. And it's like liking and sharing those Yes, role models out there. And, I mean, particularly women of colour, so I've tried to be raising up lots of different voices.

Haseena Farid 1:02:37
Yeah and I'm so glad you mentioned that, because it's a point that I'd forgotten to mention, which is actually critical to all of this is, you know, to help women of colour, the best thing you can do is sponsor them. And what I mean by sponsorship is doing exactly what you've just said, raising them up, calling their names out saying openly on social media, that this person is brilliant, and they have done this kind of work. And, you know, actually getting them out there, because one of the things that they struggle with is that they don't have these networks, or, you know, they don't have people really outwardly championing them. So I would absolutely say that, and that, of course, that's important for all women, we should all be doing that. But I think, based on some of the things we discussed today, the real challenges that these women of colour are facing, a lot of it is that they're just sort of in the background, you know, and they're doing amazing things, but they're not being celebrated. And I think to do that's a great step, you know, doing that, you'll start to see shifts, you know, the more we do that with colour, maybe we can start to affect change at that sort of 1% level right? Over time. So, yeah, I'd say sponsorship is a big one.

Carla Miller 1:03:52
Okay, that's, that's really helpful to know. So this has been super interesting for me. Nope. So I so appreciate you taking the time. If people want to find out more and to follow you connect with you, where should we send them?

Haseena Farid 1:04:07
Yeah, so we have a site called, so it's women of colour global network.com. So if you follow if you go to www dot, I think it's w o cgn.com. Were asking people to subscribe. And we will tell you more once we officially launch and we'll also keep you informed of some of the things that we're doing right now. But we'd also say follow us on socials, you know. So at wo Cgn women of colour global network, we've got lots of posts on there. The moment what we're doing once a week is we're celebrating exactly that. We're sponsoring and lifting up and celebrating some incredible women of colour out there doing some brilliant things. So take a look at what they're doing and and spread the word.
I think that's really what we'd love people to do right now spread the word about You know, this and many other issues out there, but also really help us, you know, get as many women of colour globally engaged with what we're trying to do. So yeah, so that's what you can do.

Carla Miller 1:05:10
Brilliant. Excited to see where this is going. We should catch up in a year and see what's happening.

Haseena Farid 1:05:15
Oh, definitely. Oh my gosh, yes, that'd be really interesting. Actually. I'd love to and, and yeah, and maybe bring my business partner Milena on as well, it'd be really interesting to get her perspectives. And because you know, there'll be slightly different from mine as well. But it'd be good to yeah, see where we're at.

Carla Miller 1:05:32
And I look forward to joining as an ally and supporter.

Haseena Farid 1:05:37
Oh, thank you. Absolutely. We Yes, that would be fantastic. You know, we've got, I would say, a significant number of the people who've also supporting us, our allies, and, and then this is great, this is what we want. And this is what we need, you know, and it will be the Allies actually, who help shift that dial, like turn that dial and move it in the right direction. I truly believe that is really important to have you all with us.

Carla Miller 1:06:03
Well, thank you very much. And I hope everyone goes and checks out your social media and follows and gets involved.

Haseena Farid 1:06:11
Thanks for having me. And hopefully, yeah, we should speak again about getting more women of colour into coach.

Carla Miller 1:06:18
Absolutely.I've set myself a mission of empowering 10,000 women in their careers by 2030. So if you'd like to help me with that mission, there's a couple of things you could do. If you haven't already subscribed and rated and reviewed this podcast, please do so that would be brilliant. It really helps bring it to other people's attention. And I'd also really love to know what you have taken away from this episode. Take a screenshot of yourself listening to this episode, and post it on social media and tag me I am this is Carla Miller on Instagram, or on LinkedIn. I'm Carla Miller one I would love to know what the main takeaway you got from this episode is so take a screenshot tag me and tell me what your main takeaway is.