Carla Miller 00:00
Have you been thinking about stepping up to director level? Perhaps wondering, Am I ready for that? Do I even want to do that? What's important to me in my career? If that's you, or if you're ambitious, and long term want to reach director level, then this episode is going to be super insightful for you. Welcome to the influence and impact podcast for female leaders.

My name is Carla Miller, and I'm a leadership coach who helps female leaders to tackle self doubt, become brilliant influencing and make more impact at work. I've created this podcast to help you to become a more inspiring and impactful leader. And I want to become the leadership BFF that you didn't know you were missing until now. We're looking at how do you prepare for and how do you successfully step into a director role. And the format of today's episode is not me teaching you but one of our listeners reached out and she has just spent a year or so at director level promoted internally as maternity cover, and she really wanted to share her experiences, her learnings and her lessons. And I think you're going to absolutely love hearing from her.

So my guest today is Gabi Field, Gabi was the director of fundraising and comms at refuge leading the income generation and communication functions to support women and their children experiencing domestic abuse. She has worked in the charity sector for 10 years, starting as a community fundraiser in a local charity and working across large and medium charities. And whilst her background is in charity sector and fundraising, the insights that she shares and the conversation that we have today will be relevant, whatever sector you are based in, Gabi has a real passion for people, their development and their uniqueness that they bring to a team. She is really passionate about leadership. She embodies growth mindset. And I felt really inspired spending this time talking to her. So we cover topics like how did she decide whether to apply for the opportunity when it came up? What concerns did she have beforehand? How if at all, did impostor feelings come up for her. And then we talk about her experience of being in the role and what surprised her, and what lessons she learned and what she has gone on to do at the end of that maternity cover.

She's going to share some things that she wish she'd known at the beginning. And she's just beautifully open and honest about her experience. So I think you're going to really, really enjoy this episode.

Now, I also want to signpost you to some other episodes where I have done more teaching if this is something that you're interested in. So there's actually five relevant episodes, and we'll put the links in the show notes. But there's:

Episode 61, which is about moving from specialist to generalist, which is something that Gabi and I talked about in the episode, that idea of moving from that point where you know all the answers and you know more than the team that you're managing to a generalist where you're managing people who know more about their areas than you do and how you adapt your leadership style and your expectations of yourself and others, and communication style accordingly.

Then there's Episode 41, where I share what I wish I'd known about managing and leading a lot earlier than I actually learned it. And there's some fantastic lessons in there.

In Episode 37, we talk about how to start a new job.

In Episode 35, we talk about when you're promoted above your peers. And it sounds like Gabi handled that beautifully and had a lot of support from the people who were formed formally her peers, and then became her peers again after the maternity cover.

And then finally, Episode 30 talks about stepping up to that next level of leadership and some of the lessons I learned and I've learned from coaching and recruiting lots of people moving up to the next level. So in that episode, I talk a lot about the mindset shifts that you need to make when you're moving to that next level of leadership, whatever level that might be.

Now, what's been going on over here? Well, confession, I wasn't actually going to bring this episode out this week. In my mind, I was gonna do this fantastic episode, all about influencing, which would lead nicely into our influence for success workshop that's coming up on the fifth of July. But the time I had set aside to do that was the time that my little boy managed to have quite a serious head injury at after school club yesterday. So instead, I was dashing down the road to after school club, waiting for the ambulance to arrive. They arrived fantastically quickly, which is quite surprising given we're in the middle of nowhere in Cumbria, and it wasn't a life or death situation. They were there within 15-20 minutes. I'm incredibly grateful to them, and then a trip to urgent care to get his head glued. Luckily, despite the vast amounts of blood, it actually wasn't that severe a wound and he was just a bit shaken and shocked, as was I. So when we got home, watched a bit of Bluey to calm down his nervous system. And when he went to bed, I ate a bit of chocolate and watched a bit of Ted Lasso to calm down my nervous system.

Anyway, all fine, but it does mean that I haven't got this fantastic episode on influence for you. Because I'm now heading off to London, I've been invited to a fantastic event with some brilliant female speakers people at the top of their field in various sectors, within industry and within the public sector. So I will have some lessons and insights from that for you in a future episode, I have not been down to London for work for ages. And I'm looking forward to catching up with a friend I'm looking forward to networking. A little bit nervous about networking, and learning and just having a change of scenery from beautiful Cumbria but sometimes you need to leave your little cocoon, don't you.

And so what I will do though, is flag please if you are interested in getting better at influencing upwards and sideways if you want to get your voice heard, when you speak if you want people to value you and your team more often, if you have to manage complex stakeholder relationships or deal with senior stakeholders, whether they're internal or external. If you want to speak the language of senior stakeholders and have some hacks about how you present to them really effectively, then the influence for Success Workshop is for you.

Effectively, it's an influencing upwards and sideways workshop. But we appreciate that might be a little bit tricky to put in front of your boss. So instead we call it Influence for Success, we would encourage you absolutely to ask your organisation to pay for this, we've tried to keep it relatively low cost. And if you go to my website, you can find it or you can just go to carlamillertraining.com/influence for success and I would love to see some of you on that course. Also, which reminds me someone has signed up for that course who sent me a fantastic message on a day when I was having a really bad day actually. And she sent a message to say she just wanted to thank me for the podcast, she had listened to the podcast, and it had helped her in a really tricky situation. And then later that day, she had been talking to another colleague, and that colleague was worried about having a conversation with a senior stakeholder. And she shared with that colleague one of the insights from my dealing with stressful situations episode, which was around the cloak of authority and that colleague put it into action, loved it and had a fantastic meeting. So it was just so nice to hear that the podcast had made a difference. And that my voice is out there helping people and that people are passing that podcast or what they've learned from it on to others. And now that same person has signed up for the influence for Success Workshop, so I'm looking forward to getting to know her then.

Okay, let's roll the episode with Gabi. So, welcome to the podcast Gabi, how are you doing?

Gabi Field 08:58
I'm good. Thank you. I'm really pleased that the sun is still shining and I feel like we finally stepped into summer this weekend.

Carla Miller 09:05
I know I'm already starting to get sad about when it's gonna disappear. To be honest.

Gabi Field 09:08
Me too. Yesterday I was I was having conversation with my mum and she was like, oh, this month it's the longest day and I was like mum, don't tell me that. Yeah, I want to keep the sunlight for as long as possible.

Carla Miller 09:20
I’m exactly the same. So lets start by telling our listeners a little bit about first of all, why did you decide that you wanted to come on a podcast and talk about your experiences? Let's start with that.

Gabi Field 09:32
Yeah, so I am I've been the director of fundraising and comms at refuge during the maternity cover for the last year. And it has been the first role that I've stepped up into our director. And it has been an incredible journey. And I don't think I realise how many people have been speaking to me and asking me about what it was like What had I learned, what could they learn, particularly people that are looking to take that step up into a senior leadership role, and I see because people were asking me that I was a bit like, well, there's loads I can share and talk about. And actually, if that helps other people then great. So I follow you, Carla and listen to your podcasts. I thought actually, this is a great audience to be at to be able to come and share my, my insight, my learnings, and yeah, if it helps somebody else to get their next director role, then then fantastic.

Carla Miller 10:23
I love it. I love the idea of giving back and sharing your experiences. And lots of people listening will come from the charity sector, and quite few probably come from fundraising and comms, but the audience is really bored. But what we're talking about here doesn't just apply to a specifically fundraising and comms director role, does it?

Gabi Field 10:39
No, no, not at all. Yeah, no. Yeah, that was, yeah, there's the specialism of where my directorship was, but yeah, you know, the things that I learned very much about leadership, those challenges that come with leadership. And yeah, over that, over that year on LinkedIn, on my profile, I did regular reflections throughout the whole year, you know, sharing like, things that I've struggling with things that were going really well and just being really open and honest about my journey, really.

Carla Miller 11:06
And I think that stands out, I read those, and hopefully I commented on some of them. I enjoyed them. And I think it's refreshingly honest, and there isn't enough of that I try and be refreshingly honest, on LinkedIn as well. There's a chief exec called Martin Edwards, I think he's the Chief Exec of Julia's house hospice. And he does something really similar in terms of sharing his day and what's been going on and the ups and downs. And I'm like, Cool, If only more leaders did this, so we saw actually, you're not superhuman, director role or a chief exec role. In fact, you have the same struggles as everyone else does, and you're just trying to do the best you can. Definitely. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to this director role.

Gabi Field 11:50
Yeah. So I became a fundraiser community fundraiser 10 years ago, for my local hospice. And I remember seeing that advert thinking, Oh, my God, that's just me and in an advert I could do all of that. And so yeah, applied for the job and got the job and have not looked back since her very much through my career, worked in local charities and large charities with a specialism around community events, digital mobilisation, that sort of mass acquisition.

So I came to Refuge five years ago, and since then, the five years that I've been at Refuge have been an incredible journey, both from my own personal development, but actually as an organisation, you know, I'm sure you are many of your listeners would know, this sort of huge uplift in awareness of Refuge through the lockdown and domestic abuse in particular. And that in itself, that journey we went on as a fundraising and communications team was just incredible at that particular period of time. And then our director of fundraising and comms at refuge, there was a maternity cover opportunity. And I was just at that point thinking, Am I ready to become a director and for me, it was, it was a no brainer to at least go for it. And I was very, very lucky to secure the maternity cover, and then take on yeah, my first year as a director within Refuge. And now looking for my next director role in the sector, still looking around at the moment to see what there is, but yeah, that's sort of my journey to date.

Carla Miller 13:24
And so tell us about that thought process, because I know lots I coach, lots of women, lots of them sit in that place are going, oh, there's this opportunity. at that next level? Am I ready? It sounds like you had a real drive forwards to go for it. But what was going on in your head? And what was it that made you go actually, I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring.

Gabi Field 13:45
So I, had a really honest conversation with the, with my director, who is absolutely fantastic. And I think my personal development, I owe a huge amount to her at Refuge, because she has enabled me to do so many things to grow myself. And I think that I'd got to a point I was a bit bored. And I was like, Why am I feeling this? Is this because, you know, you go through that process? Don't you have like, is it I don't to be in this particular charity anymore? Is it this role? Is it this sector? And I spent a bit of time actually with my coach at the time thinking about, or what is it I want to do next? What does that look like? And I think actually, the boredom had come because I sort of ready to really push myself, once again, really outside of my comfort zone. And I when this opportunity came along, I was a bit like, I did the classic thing of looking at the JD going well, I probably could do about 40% of that, and maybe I can't do the rest and you know, went through that process of, oh, what would I be taking on and maybe I'm not the right person to do it and but then when I looked at looked at it again, I was like, you know, if there's 40% of it, I'm feeling comfortable with and the and the goal for me was to feel uncomfortable because that's when I know I'm learning the best and actually when I'm going to be challenging myself the most. And so I decided to apply for it. Still thinking, I don't know if I would get it and then lo and behold, I did I think when I got told it was that, that absolute elation of my God, I got the job. But then suddenly, within seconds that fear comes in of like, and now I've got to do the job. And what does that look like? And how am I going to make sure that I'm, I suppose, really aware of stepping into this role of what I can bring what I can't bring, and how I ensure I build that, that support for myself both internally and externally to do the best that I can within the role.

Carla Miller 15:41
I love that you've thought all of that through what support did you need? And what support did you find most helpful?

Gabi Field 15:48
Yeah, so my CEO Ruth Davidson was absolutely fantastic. And Louise before she went on maternity cover our director of fundraising and comms and they both, we had a conversation about what support I needed internally, what support I needed from Ruth, what did that look like, but also, I suppose the recognition that I was going from being a peer, to managing my peers, and we spent a bit of time thinking about that. And then again, that external support, so I secured myself three mentors, not that I had an ambition to secure three. But Louise asked a few people and everyone said, yes, they were willing to help. And I thought, well, I'll have all three, not, but again, had very different roles with each of my mentors.

So one of my mentors is very much that person that when you're having that day, when you think, why did I take this job on and I just need to have that a bit of event a bit of a space to be held. So I could just process what's happened in particular scenarios. And my other two mentors were a little bit different. One was very much around me and the role as director of fundraising, comms and going and problem solving different things I was going through. And the other was very much about my leadership style. So each had a very different purpose. And again, met, met them and sort of had had one session with one of them at least every six weeks.

So I think having that external support was really important. Because sometimes, when you're internal, and you've got that support, you know, you're just trying to deliver on the day to day as well as having those conversations with my peers, my other senior leadership, team members, but also, you know, I'll see you as well, you know, getting that sometimes having an external perspective is really helpful. So that's definitely what I sort of put in place. And just that sort of, I think with myself, I spent a bit of time really thinking about how I was going to approach the role. And I very much thought I need to be the person that asks all the questions, because that's the only way I'm gonna learn quickly. And I, you know, we've just started the new financial year, after stepping into a senior leadership team that work, you know, it was a group of our senior leadership team at that point, we're all women, hugely successful women in their specialisms in their area, you know, 10 years plus being directors. And there I am stepping in, you know, as my first director role.

So I really knew that actor established myself my confidence quickly, and sort of build that trust in that group. But I knew that I had to ask all the questions and not be the person who leaves the meeting going, oh, yeah, no, I knew the answer to that and leave and go, I really don't know the answer to that, that I was gonna ask all the questions, which I did.

Carla Miller 18:31
I think is is this maybe isn't that leaders should have all the answers. And I always say no, actually, leaders need to be the was great at asking questions. So it's fantastic that you went in and did that. And we don't build trust at all. If we fake it, I hate them. Fake it till you make it. Yeah. Raise much rather say? I don't know. That's a great question. Or tell me more about what I need to understand here. So it's fantastic that you went in like that. We guarantee any impostor feelings sitting in that?

Gabi Field 18:58
Oh, yeah. Constant? And yes, definitely. You know, I think that, I think because I was like, because I knew this was gonna be a learning opportunity, I think because it had a timeframe on it, I knew I was only going to be doing it for for 12 months, I was very much thinking about, like, what is it I want to achieve in those 12 months, and I was like, Yo, this opportunity may not come, you know, it may be that I may not be able to stay as director if our permanent director was coming back from maternity leave. So I was like, actually, I'm gonna take this opportunity and learn as much as I can. And so the imposter syndrome, I would say, was there throughout, I would say it was more intense to begin with when, you know, I'm trying to re establish myself in my peer group and having one to ones and, again, just having really honest conversations to say, Okay, I'm now your manager. Let's have a conversation about this. What do you need from me? What do I need from you what's important about how we work together? And I think that really helped establish those, sort of reestablish those boundaries for that piece. We'd have time. And actually my, my heads off my management team have worked really well with over that year. And then within my peer group, I remember a couple of weeks into being the director, we'd been doing some leadership, we had leadership programme at refuge for our senior management team and our senior leadership team. And I'd obviously been part of the senior management team cohort. And so this was the first time I've shifted into the senior leadership team. And the session was about giving feedback. And we had to give feedback, both something really positive, but also some constructive feedback to each of our peers. And I remember thinking, I've only been working with these directors for three weeks, what can I possibly say?

But also, what are they going to say about me? And I remember that the facilitator came to me and said, you know, Gabi, what, what feedback do you want to give? And I think the this is a point a couple of weeks in that I didn't feel like I'd quite established myself, but it also felt like I was a bit of a visitor. And that I'm a maternity cover. I'm here just for a period of time uncovering Louise's role. You know, Louise had been, obviously director for a long time at refuge. And so I remember given the piece of feedback to say, to everyone in the senior leadership team, you know, I know I'm on maternity cover, but this is my role. This is my full time role. I can bring a different strength, a different style, to Louise, you know, I, it's my programme, it's my team, it's my directory, and I need you to see me as the director of fundraising, and not as a visitor. And it was a really interesting conversation, because the feedback I got from that was that none of them saw me as a visitor, it was actually me thinking that me thinking, Oh, they don't see me as, as director like Louise, you know, I'm, you know, they see me as this new person coming in, like trying to find their feet. And from that moment, Carla, it completely changed. The relationships I had with the directors in a really positive way changed, I felt really confident to ask them things, they were asking me things. And I remember, about six months down the line, I asked for some feedback from each of them. And actually, many of them commented to say that they were learning from me. And that was really wonderful to hear, because I thought, what possibly could they learn from me, but actually, they learned as much from me as I was from them.

But yeah, the imposter syndrome definitely was speckled throughout. And I think it was just that, having that time, particularly with my mentors to say, I've had a really bad two weeks, and I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to solve this. And just having that space to sort of explore it and go, What a wonder I don't know what to do. Because I've never done this before. That could be the reason why I'm feeling it. Or actually, it's perfectly normal to feel that because you're really passionate and care, and it's not quite gone to plan. So I think yeah, it definitely got it wasn't so intense, I think, as the 14 Months went on, but it was definitely still speckled throughout.

Carla Miller 23:04
That makes sense. I think anytime we step out of our comfort zone, and it sounds like you were actively or proactively doing that, it does get really vocal, doesn't it that impostor feelings, and I think when we can articulate them, but articulate them in a confident way, not unapologetic, right, I think that's really helpful. Yeah, love that they were learning from you, too, and the different energy bought and a different perspective you bought, and just your individual and unique insights and approach to things. It sounds like they really welcomed you into the group and was better off for having you in that role. What was it like when it came to an end? Because that's always an interesting thing. When whenever you promote someone up as an interim, when it comes to an end, it's like, oh, this is a bit of a crux point here. So what happened? How did it feel for you as it came to an end, as you knew it was coming to an end?

Gabi Field 23:59
Yeah, I think it was a peculiar feeling. So when our permanent director came back, we had about a month overlap, because she was about part time to start with. So So again, it was really nice to have her back. And it felt like I remember saying to her, it's like I had my comfy pair of slippers back because I've worked with her for so many years, and she'd been my manager for so many years. It was quite nice to have her back. And, and sort of, I suppose start to hand over some things. When I stepped into the director role, we actually temporarily shifted some of the structure underneath and sort of absorbed my team into others. So my role hadn't actually been my my substantive role hadn't actually been there. So when one of our heads have actually went on maternity leave in February, it was agreed that for now until the structure was really looked at by Louise on her return, that I'd step into that role.

So I was sort of going into another temporary role. So that in itself was I suppose Is it a bit odd because I wasn't going back into our account and back now as Head of Community and events. Here's my team, here's what it was, you know, a year, I've been gone a year, but not gone but gone from this team, it was stepping into something different.

But then I was managing different teams, I was doing different things. So it felt like the continuity of doing something different has actually continued. Because I've been leading on some key projects that I think if I'd gone back into my substantive role I wouldn't necessarily have been leading on I would have been part of. So it has felt like I'm still learning. And I think it wasn't until a couple of weeks after Louise was back full time that I wasn't at senior leadership team meeting every week, that's like, Oh, I'm not there anymore. But actually, I still have brilliant working relationship with the directors, they still come and ask me advice for things. And so that's great. I've been accepted back into my peer group wonderfully, like they've given some wonderful feedback to me as well about being their manager for the year. But yeah, I think the reality is, and the CEO and the senior leadership team, you know, we did a lot of conversations around what they could do to ultimately to keep me on what did what did I want to do next? And what did that look like, as part of my personal development, and the reality is, I want to remain as a director, and they can't offer me that, you know, and I think for me, you know, five years at refuge, I stepped in as a manager level, I'm leaving as a director. And in that time, you know, we've tripled our income with, like, tenfold, our supporters out there, what we've achieved at refuge, particularly what I've achieved at refuge is so amazing. It sort of felt like it was a nice time to close the chapter as well, even though it's extremely sad, of course, to be leaving an organisation that has been part of my life for five years. And if but it felt like I really wanted to leave on a high. And so yeah, I think it it has been difficult. But I think because I've been doing new different things in this sort of interim role, it has still felt quite new.

Carla Miller 27:10
Yeah, I get that. And then I absolutely want to go back and explore what it was like actually being a director, but whilst we're talking about what's going on for you now, and so what, what have you been doing? How's it been going? Since you made that decision that you were looking for another director role?

Gabi Field 27:23
Yeah. So I suppose I was, you know, the beauty of having those conversations internally refuges, you know, I said, I am going to start looking for another job. And I could have those conversations with our CEO, and who was hugely supportive and said, you know, it is a huge loss for us, if we lose you, but your personal development, you know, your, we want you to continue to be a director and give all that, you know, that you do as a leader in the sector, so I've been applying for jobs and interviewing which colour in itself is like a full time job. And I think, I think when I first started applying for my first job and got an interview, at director level, so I suppose it's important to say at this point, this is the first time I'm externally applying for a job, because obviously, the director role was, you know, I was an internal candidate. And I can remember going for the interview, and I got to the final two, and I didn't get it. And I thought, okay, that's okay. You know, I'll learn from this is the first one I've done externally, I don't think I realised the sort of journey I would go on.

for months, I've been applying for roles, there's been eight roles that I've applied for. And I have learned so much about myself, I've had a huge amount of support from recruiters that I've been working with. But the it's really given me insight into the fact that that in itself is a journey and has taught me so much. I think there are definitely times in that period, you know, when you're constantly applying for jobs. I was very, very lucky in all those scenarios, I was getting interviews, and I was getting to the final count, whether that be final two or final three. And there are different reasons why I wasn't getting the job, some of the feedback I got was, the other candidates have been a director for longer, you know, and that's what they were looking for others it was, you know, that that another candidate had been in that particular sector of charity before.

But actually, the feedback I, you know, I really got was that if they had two jobs, they would offer two jobs at this point, because, you know, the pool of candidates was really strong. And I think something that one of the recruiters shared with me, which was really important, I think, because there was a period where I was like, should I even be applying for Director roles? You know, is this having 14 months behind me actually not working to my favour, you know, what, and I fell into that sort of real negative pit I suppose of doubt in myself. And then when the recruiter said, you know, some of the obviously did not share who but you know, I was up against directors who have been directors for 10 years, I was knocking people off that top spot and I think Just to hear that, and also to hear as well, that other people are the directors who apply for roles, you know, they're four or five posts down the line and not getting them as well, for all sorts of different reasons. It just really played out that actually, the landscape is very, very different at the minute, and I just need to persevere, I just need to keep putting my name out there. So I have now secured a job, which is great, which I'll do to start shortly. Going through, obviously, process at the moment before I can share that information. But I think, what, what I didn't appreciate was, when I first started, I definitely think I was like, Oh, I could, I'm gonna apply for this role. And I'm sure I'm gonna get one in the first two, not that it was gonna be this four or five month period of time where I was, again, you know, there's only so many jobs you can apply for at once. Because it's so, you know, I've done what have I done 16 interviews, individual interviews, in that period of time of which each one you prepare for, whether it be a presentation, whether you're learning about the organisation, whether you're practising your questions and answers.

You know, it's a lot of time you put in, but I just, I think I just held on to the fact that I knew that some, some something would come along, and the right fit would be there for both myself and for that organisation. Because it's just as important. So yeah.

Carla Miller 31:24
I'm sure lots of people listening will be feeling your pain on that and will be either experiencing it or remembering experiencing it themselves. I like to think that jobs are a little bit like dating in that you end up with the job you're meant to have. Not necessarily that that's going to be your dream job, but perhaps it will teach you the lessons. Do you feel like now that you have secured this role? Does it feel like oh, yeah, this was meant? This is why all that happened? This was meant to be?

Gabi Field 31:53
Yeah, definitely. And I think yeah, this role, this organisation, you know, it could not align more with absolutely, everything came about as an individual my values, you know, that I've previously supported them as an organisation. I think you get to that point, sometimes where there were roles, and I did apply, yeah, there were a couple of roles. For some really big organisations, you know, it would have been a huge a huge jump from, you know, the size of Refuge and medium sized organisation to go to a national, large organisation. And I remember applying for one of them and thinking, I'm just going to apply for it, because actually, I'll learn. And actually, some of the roles are probably that one in particular I took as well, let's see what happens, let you know, I'm, I may get some good feedback from this, that will help me and again, even with that, you know, getting to the final two, I think that gave me that boost of confidence, a little bit of power.

Okay, so there was eight of us the original and original first round, and now there's two of us, and I'm one of those two, and they clearly see that I'm able to do the job, and that what I'm bringing in, and my style of leadership and my vision for for fundraising is something that they're very interested in. So yeah, I think some of those roles. When I look back, now, I'm like, would I've really been happy there as in not happy because the organisation you know, and if it's with the organisation, but calls related, you know, you know, I was, I am very much looking for a role that I can stay in for a period of time to really, I suppose, broaden my skill set as a director. But it on hindsight, some of those interviews, you get the know, and it's that feeling when you get that feeling in your stomach, you think, oh, start all over again. That's definitely what I felt. Like, I remember getting getting the call for the for the role that I've secured. And as soon as the phone started ringing, my whole body went into my head. But here we go. It's another note, as if I was prepared for the No. And when they said yes, I don't think I could ever say yes, I wanted to say can you just repeat that?

Did you actually say yes, actually, I've actually got the job that I wanted. But yeah, I think sometimes that that panic sets in of, well, I need to get a job, I want a job, I want a director role. Let's just go for this one. But I learned so much about so many different organisations, some of them that, you know, some organisations that I've never actually heard of, and some that I have, and I've learned a lot and actually made some great connections along the way. You know, some of those CEOs that interviewed me I'm connected with on LinkedIn and, you know, I can learn a lot from and I think when you get that know, it can really impact your confidence and how you feel, especially for your next interview. But also for future you know, there's a whole cohort of charities I've just been interviewed for people now know who I am.

And that's the thing I don't have that sense of, I could have quite easily actually had that sense of what That's an organisation I could never apply for, again, because I didn't get that job. And actually, I want to take it as an opportunity to stay connected with people that I've met as part of this interview process. So that they can see how I continue on my journey. And if there's a job that comes up there at a time when it's right for me, and for them, who, you know, who knows what the future holds.

Carla Miller 35:20
I have that I remember applying for a job years ago and not getting it and then ended up being really good friends with the person who did get it and into that organisation. In that same way, it is fascinating learning about new organisations really dive into it, you're like, oh, it's actually super interesting. Yeah. And you're really embodying a growth mindset throughout all of this. And I think someone might be listening going, I'm not as confident as Gabby. But I think what they can learn from you is your mindset, that idea of actually, I can learn from this. It's all an experience and really looking for the positives in things, feeling the feelings in terms of disappointment, or frustration, or whatever it is that's going on. And I'm delighted that you've got this exciting new role, and we look forward to seeing you in action there. Now, let's just take a step back and talk about being a director. You described it as quite a journey. What surprised you about operating at that level?

Gabi Field 36:24
Yeah. I think, the shift. For me, it was definitely the shift between being a specialist in a particular area. Not just necessarily special in the specialism within fundraising. You know, fundraising being the specialism. But yes, there was a column within that, that obviously, I would say, you know, somebody asked me a question, I'd be happy to answer it in seconds.

Suddenly, I went into a role where I have to get that balance between ensuring that I was enabling my leaders to deliver the budget, the programme, everything in fundraising and comms and being that champion for them, whilst also suddenly shifting and making some royally humongous, risky decisions organizationally. And that balance between how I spent my time how I prioritise between, you know, meeting with the senior leadership team, every week, we had, you know, papers, how I was managing board, and again, a much broader remit across everything within the organisation at that strategic level, whilst also coaching, supporting and empowering my team, to be able to deliver our section of the strategy around fundraising and comms, I definitely think that there were some times in the first six weeks, eight weeks, that there were some scenarios that played out, particularly with my heads off, where I was sort of stepping into the detail a bit. And actually, they gave me some feedback, really helpful feedback with very particular examples of all Gabi, when this happened, this is something that I can do in my job. And it was never me. It was me just trying to get used to the fact that I don't, I don't need to know that level of detail anymore, I now need to trust my head, sort of have the structure set in place have that, you know, two way communication, but also, I suppose to share with them like what's important for me to know, so that I don't step into the detail. And it wasn't, you know, I remember one of my heads up saying, I just feel like, don't trust me.

And I remember hearing that thinking, oh, my, what, I never wanted you to ever feel like that, of course, I trust you. And it was actually on me and me needing to work on the fact that I needed to just change how I was getting that information. No, I would go to the team, ask my team. Where are we at with this? Where are we at with that? But actually, it was a very different set of questions and information I needed, particularly then when my CEOs asking me information about things. And actually, sometimes I'm like, Well, I don't know, I don't know the answer to that question. I can find, you know, I can find it out. Because actually, you know, that's my head or philanthropy who would know the answer to that level of detail. So I think that shift between specialism to generalism and then getting that balance between how I was ensuring that decisions were making around where we were going to expand our services or how we were going to change policies and processes or know what our risk register looked like or where sort of our our progress against our strategic priorities or board recruitment, all sorts of things like that, organizationally, how I was balancing that asking the question, so we understood what decisions I was making here. But also, I think it was that confidence piece to to know what questions to ask how to challenge well how to, you know, say yeah, I agree. We go ahead with this and feel confident that you No, I am confident that from my perspective and my area of work and how we input into that decision, it's definitely one that I met. Yes, I feel that that is the right decision. So that was definitely one of the biggest shifts for me.

Carla Miller 40:15
It is a big one that moved from specialist to generalist. And also that, that letting go, like you say, have the detail and recognise because you're, you're now trusting your reputation to your team effectively. Yeah, but you and that's quite scary. And it does bring out lead to kind of have a sense of control over it. You have to kind of walk yourself back.

Gabi Field 40:38
Yeah, I remember one of my mentors saying to me, you are now a leader of leaders. And I remember hearing that and it absolutely changed my mindset. So I was like, yes, that is what I'm doing now with my, with my heads of my directory, I will lead the leaders. So that definitely helped me to realise, you know, when we were having, you know, one to ones I'd weekly want to answer by heads off, because they were the most important people, to me, you know, spending that time with them and showing that I was supporting them and helping them if there was blockers or barriers that needed to come down, or there was new opportunities and spending that time together to be able to do that so that they could through the rest of that week, get on and do their job. I think that that was a real a real eye. Yeah, leading leader of leaders was a, I remember that being a point where it just something in my mindset just shifted. And I was like, oh, okay, yes, that is how I need to need to change.

I definitely think as well, I never got through so much paper in my first few weeks, because I didn't know the answer to anything. So I had to write stuff down. I think that was really frustrated. Because I think I was so used to somebody asking me something about events as an example, or which I wouldn't even need to think about I could do with my eyes closed. And suddenly somebody would be asking me about something else. And I'd be like, oh, and I think as well, I was just honest about it. I said, I don't know the answer to that. But we are going to find an answer to it. We will solve this together. And I think just using your active listening skills. So listen to what that person is saying what it is that the problem is so that I can really understand it, ask a lot of questions back. So I left that face to face meeting call to go okay, I understand what it is we're trying to get an icon now go and speak to x or help to try and unblock that or give them advice to say, I suggest you go speak to this person. See how that goes. That was a real shift. Because I suppose I was just so used to knowing the answer because I was in this particular area of specialism. And suddenly I was like, I don't know the answer to that. And I felt like I should have been wearing a t shirt the first month that just said to that, but I will find the answer to that. So yes, sitting in that uncomfortableness for a bit of not knowing was definitely hard.

Carla Miller 43:01
Wait till you get to Chief Exec level, which out you will get to where no one knows the answer. And you're sitting there going, Oh, I have to make this decision. Which is the right choice. totally freak me out. Because I was like, Well, I don't have information to make.

Gabi Field 43:16
And I think that's why having that network of mentors that I spoke about earlier, was really important too, because I can remember speaking to one of them and saying, this week, I have the 150 questions I've been asked, I've known the answer to like 10. Is this normal? And it was really great, because they reflected back and said, Well, yeah, I can when I became a director, like that sort of, you know, I think I can remember thinking that suddenly, I left a head of HR on a Friday and started a directorate on a Monday. And I was and I remember starting on the Monday and thinking it's like there's this expectation that I've just like somehow shifted complete mindset know exactly how to be a director, I've got my JD, I know what the year plan is, we know what the budgets are. I know refuge because I've been I've been there for four years. So I just know it.

And I remember thinking to myself, I wrote a list of my first week, and I wrote just a couple of things of what I need to achieve. And I had to sort of basically readapt myself, I think that's definitely a learning for me and any ones to eat, especially when you're already in that organisation. Like I was like, this needs to be as if it's a brand new job. There are some bits of an induction obviously I don't need to do but actually I need to treat this like a new job because it is a new job. And I don't know how processes and systems to some extent work of what I need to be doing. And so I spent a lot of time with with our, with our CEO, and actually with her EA and some of the other peers and just ask some basic questions like so what happens in SLT, like, you know, I didn't know what what happens in that weekly meeting. What's the structure? What is it that we're doing, what is the purpose, you know, things like that, that. Again, it came back down to that.

Asking questions which, again, is not easy to do, because you constantly feel like you know, I said earlier, I just came at it with that I'm just gonna ask all the questions, you know, but when you've asked 15 questions in one two hour meeting you do you do feel like, Oh, God, they must all be sitting there thinking she hears Gabby asking another question. But actually, it was only that was only me that felt that nobody in that space, nobody in that room ever said, Gabby, stop asking questions. And if anything, some of them were like, it's great that you're, you're, you know, you're clearly asking questions, because you want to do the best that you can in this role. And that's something that we really, you should really pride yourself in. But yeah, I think the the being the person that was asked the questions, definitely could have won a t shirt in the first month. But that printed on.

Carla Miller 45:44
One of the things I found about being directors is that thinking organizationally, rather than thinking about what's best for your team, which is where you instinctively go, did you find yourself in any situation where you were like, okay, organizationally, the right decision is a, what would be best for my team is B, but I go for A, because that is my job. How did that feel?

Gabi Field 46:07
Yeah, we had a scenario, actually, last year, in particular around this, which was really challenged. Well, I say challenging, it was challenging, I suppose, with those different decision making hats on, it was about taking out about a piece of funding a multi year partnership, one of the biggest we would have ever had at Refuge, with an organisation that did not necessarily align to our values. So from my team, it's like, this is a 3 million pound partnership that three years of absolutely transform a piece of work that, you know, within within our refuges, you know, it was incredible opportunity, you know that the team had spent a couple of years really building this partnership from a, an emergency donation they have given us in COVID. And then when it came to the senior leadership team, and the team came and presented the opportunity, and we spoke about it, there were huge amounts of questions, concerns or risks around where this particular funder gets their funding, how that aligns with a feminist organisation, how that aligns with our values, particularly around the sort of anti racism and inclusion part of the work that we really champion.

So there was a sort of very different process that then happened for the fundraising team where they engaged with all sorts of different internal key stakeholders, particularly within our employee network groups, as well as our survivor engagement panel as well and sort of got them involved in asking questions. And actually, the decision was made of which I do agree with, at that senior leadership team level that we did, we decided to not go for the funding, because actually risk wise reputational, and actually who we are, as an organisation, outweighed the income we would get from it. And that was a really, really interesting time because I was really torn, you know, the Fundraising Moves, like, this is an amazing opportunity, I could see my team saying that and how I was supporting and working with them, as we went through that process, and, you know, getting them involved, because there's nothing but you know, the amount of work that they put into it, you know, but actually, we took it as a huge learning and that team in the next team meeting actually fed that back as a something that they learnt, it never landed us. Of this was a process we went through, we didn't get it, the decision was made. It was never, you know, this, you know, at the time I trust manager who's not not with us anymore, at refuge, you know, she said, this has been an amazing opportunity. And I have learned so much engage with so many people, you know, and then we had to call the funder, you know, speak to and say that we're not You're not going to be accepting, you know, this, this proposal, this opportunity. And, you know, I think that that was a great example of how I made that decision as organizationally what was right for us, not just within our within our specialism within fundraising and comms. But yeah, I think that that split and decision making between the two is a constant thing I I definitely would say that in a week, I would spend more of my time understanding more things organizationally, than actually sometimes in my own team, because within my own team, I knew we knew what the business plans were, we knew what the budgets were, I had, you know, we had a process set up of how I met with my heads of how we communicated the team meetings, how we were delivering on things. So again, I felt very confident in the fact that actually if I'm asked a question about what's going on in my team, I could answer that relatively well. And actually spending more of my time understanding much more across the organisation so when I'm asked, we want to go for you know, there's a service up for tender it's a new area for us, you know how I'm asking questions and making those decisions? And actually how fundraising and communications can support that? You know, that's the other thing. It's not just making a decision. As a director, it's okay. It's how is that going to impact my team? What does that mean, for what we're trying to achieve this year? What does that mean longer term? I definitely think that was a confidence thing as well that built, the more times you did it, and obviously, it was a weekly thing, you know, senior leadership team meeting. So they're still scenarios, though, even in the last couple of months, you know, managing difficult situations, you know, as part of my role as Director of Communications, you know, we did have some crisis comms during that period of time. And, and that in itself, you know, managing the team and managing the process, but also, that sort of managing some really big key stakeholders in that both externally our board as well, you know, that that in itself, I think you're constantly learning, you're constantly evolving, no one ever gets it right. The firt, you know, when we're doing things, and I think that's the beauty of what I definitely feel I bought to the senior leadership team was it was that reflection when things happen constantly looking back, whether that be, you know, the quarter of what we've delivered, whether that be a particular scenario, you know, within a crisis scenario, or what's going on, what can we do better next time? How can we make that? How can we improve that? Is there anything to improve on? I definitely think I've done a lot of that myself during that 14 months. So if I can, like did it like that would have done it different next time. And I would say Carla, there was so many examples where I've said to myself, actually would have done it different. And I didn't do anything, you know, what I did was was fine for what I knew at that time. But I think it's just that constant, evolving to be. To be to be the best support I can be for my direct line reports. That's ultimately what I'm trying to do. You know, I will constantly learn myself, but actually, are they getting what they need to be able to feel empowered to own and deliver their areas of work in their job?

Carla Miller 52:08
Fantastic, very, very inspiring. Now, I have a personal question. Just something personal interest to me, which is obviously you've been working for a women's charity, didn't you think there are any distinct cultural differences about that, because I talk a lot about patriarchy, and gender bias in the workplace. Obviously, some of those things are not playing out, because at the time all of your senior leadership team were women is that yes, that's correct. Was there anything refreshingly different about working for a women's charity?

Gabi Field 52:40
I think, I think what was interesting about and I've thought about this, because actually, the senior leadership team changed through that year. So we did actually, our Interim Director of Corporate Services, was a, what is his, he's only just left us as a man. And I definitely think that being a young woman, myself, and stepping into that, that group of peers, of women, there definitely was that I had that feeling. And it this was my feeling of, like, these incredible women, and how could I even compete? And how could I be as amazing as these women that I'm going to be working with? And I definitely felt that, especially as everybody was, you know, there were all female directors, I do sometimes reflect and think, would I have thought differently, if there was more of a mix? Would I have naturally gone more to get support from the women in my peer group rather than the men, or what the real shift was, is when our Interim Director of Corporate Services start absolutely fantastic relationship with him and learned so much from him? If anything, I actually started talking to him more weakly than some of my other peers, and just getting a really different perspective. I definitely think that, you know, we refuge hugely champion anybody in our organisation around their personal development.

And I think that because I was given this opportunity for me, it was, you know, I had to come at it 100 marks, you know, 100% take this opportunity, because when I compare it to the process, I've just been through externally with interviews and being interviewed by all sorts of different people from different sectors that have maybe set in a CEOs not been in the sector long or have been were fundraisers themselves, not fundraisers, and that whole mix. I think that the confidence I have been able to build in myself over this last year, and I definitely think there is something about that stat. Peer support being female has definitely enabled me to probably feel more confident more quickly. The sort of ways I was being challenged the dynamics of that group.

Obviously, it's very different to whether that bit have been predominantly male or half half, you know, is very different. We were we are, they are a very ambitious group of women. And I think sometimes that you can get to that place where that feeling of not when when you don't make the right decision or where, you know, I think about things within my own areas, decisions that I made, that maybe weren't quite the right decision, or what did I learn from that? I think sometimes having that space to talk about it did feel safer. Now, I'm obviously can't compare that to any other senior leadership team as this was my first role. So I can't say Would I have felt that I could be that open and honest and share that in another group of directors with a very different makeup? But I think I will say I think being in this, you know, a feminist organisation is secure in my next job, which is of a very similar, similar values, similar leadership style. I definitely think that's obviously a place that I particularly what well in and thriving, definitely. And it's clearly my leadership style, as well.

Carla Miller 56:22
Fantastic. And we've covered a lot here, and thank you so much for your honesty. Just to finish it up. It would be great to just think about, I mean, I know there's so many things. But one thing that you wish you had known when you first stepped into that role, a piece of advice maybe for someone else is stepping into their first director role.

Gabi Field 56:43
I think I'd really wish that I'd spoken to somebody who was a director, to understand a bit more about the differentiation of what actually a director role is, because I think it didn't necessarily have that conversation just suddenly went into Monday morning, being a director go into senior leadership team meetings, and it did take me a while to remember the first few weeks constantly, by the end of the week or the weekend, I'd meet friends and I'd be like, I just don't feel I don't anything this week, you know, I felt like I hadn't. And I think there was so many questions and really trying to get my head around that shift. I think if I'd had that conversation, and I would, I would welcome Lee have this conversation with anybody have that? Okay. So when you go into this role, the real difference is a very practical side, I think is what I'm trying to say is like you will be very used to making decisions about your budget, your team. And actually what does that mean, and how within that role, my role as director of farmers incomes, how my views and thoughts and inputs, organizationally, how that works. That think it was more the practicalities and process that I would have to understand as a director, more so than anything else, I think was definitely one learning I’d have.

Carla Miller 57:59
Brilliant, thank you for offering to have that conversation, I think you might actually be flooded with office space to walk that back a little bit. And if people do want to get in touch with you just to say it's a great episode, you do not have to request for Gabi’s time but if people want to get in touch with me, where's the best place for them to find you?

Gabi Field 58:16
You can find me on LinkedIn. Yeah, feel free to follow me. There's loads on there on my post about all the reflections I've done as a leader of the year so hopefully, you know, covering 25 Different don't think I quite realise how many things I spoke about, but 25 different subjects from things like feeling overwhelmed to well being to confidence. Yeah, there's lots of different things that I covered. But yeah, do follow me on LinkedIn. And yeah, feel free to connect and message.

Carla Miller 58:43
Definitely, definitely have a read of those posts. I really enjoyed reading them. Gabi, thank you so much for sharing your insights. And when we were chatting, before we started recording, you said something really powerful to me, which was I think I was put on this earth to do good. And I absolutely love that really, really resonates with me as well. And I think you've done a lot of good in taking the time initiating this episode and being so honest with your insights. So, a big thank you for me, but also for everybody listening.

Gabi Field 59:15
Thank you, Carla, thank you for the opportunity. It's been wonderful talking to you this morning.

Carla Miller 59:27
Thanks for listening to today's episode.

If you're not already subscribing, please do so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if you want to go deeper on the topics that we talked about here on the podcast on confidence, self-doubt, impostor feelings, increasing your influence being better at leading, then there are a few avenues that you can take.

The simplest is to get yourself a copy of my book, Closing the Influence Gap. If you love this podcast, it is crazy if you don't already own that book because it's Got so much of the content from the podcast in a really accessible way and so many practical tools and strategies. It's basically a practical guide for women leaders who want to be heard in the workplace, you can grab a copy in any bookstore.

Now, we also run a couple of open programmes. We run them once or twice a year each, there is Be Bolder, our four week confidence and assertiveness course, which is suitable for women at any level.

And then there's also Influence and Impact, which is our Women's Leadership Development Programme. That's a three month small group cohort working closely with me. And in my team and I also work in house in organisations, sometimes that's working with women leaders, whether that's running a whole Women's Leadership Programme, or running one of our really popular master classes for women leaders. Sometimes it's working with early to mid career women wear, we're often sharing our be bolder confidence and assertiveness programme.

We also offer gender neutral versions of that which are becoming increasingly popular because women aren't the only people experiencing confidence challenges.

And then finally, we do work with Ally ship and supporting men to help bring about gender equity in the workplace as well. So if you are heading up a team, or a department or within your organisation, you're responsible for the people function or l&d. And we'd like to have a chat about how we can work together. I would absolutely love that. And you can go to my website and book a call. Or if it's simpler, head on over to LinkedIn, let's connect and let's chat there. I would love to take working with you to the next level and help you to become an organisation that retains and develops and supports the talented women that work for you.